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 Off-Season Moves 
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
wjb21ndtown wrote:
kdsberman wrote:
Hey Im not supporting the idea of tagging Delmas, i was just saying he would be cheaper.

I would be all for tagging and trading Avril, but the Lions already said they arent going to use the franchise tag. Again, not supporting it, just stating the facts.

Unfortunately, I see the Lions letting Avril walk, therefore getting NOTHING out of the deal.



I'm not shooting the messenger, I'm just pointing out facts too! :arrow: :idea:

I see us doing worse... I see us actually signing that bum for $12 million per year, and really screwing us. I'd much rather have Jake Long for a reasonable salary and draft a DE than over-pay Avril.


Well if they sign him for $12 million/yr instead of just tagging him for a second year Mayhew should be fired. I think Mayhew is smart enough not to tie up that much cap space with Avril, so that's why I bring up Delmas as the tag target. I did see that the Safety tag number is almost 7 million, so I'm going to say Mayhew is doing the right thing by not using the tag on anyone. It seems way to risky tying up so much money just to hope you can trade Avril since I don't know if anyone will want to pay him as much as he seems to want.


January 4th, 2013, 5:30 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
rao wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
kdsberman wrote:
Hey Im not supporting the idea of tagging Delmas, i was just saying he would be cheaper.

I would be all for tagging and trading Avril, but the Lions already said they arent going to use the franchise tag. Again, not supporting it, just stating the facts.

Unfortunately, I see the Lions letting Avril walk, therefore getting NOTHING out of the deal.



I'm not shooting the messenger, I'm just pointing out facts too! :arrow: :idea:

I see us doing worse... I see us actually signing that bum for $12 million per year, and really screwing us. I'd much rather have Jake Long for a reasonable salary and draft a DE than over-pay Avril.


Well if they sign him for $12 million/yr instead of just tagging him for a second year Mayhew should be fired. I think Mayhew is smart enough not to tie up that much cap space with Avril, so that's why I bring up Delmas as the tag target. I did see that the Safety tag number is almost 7 million, so I'm going to say Mayhew is doing the right thing by not using the tag on anyone. It seems way to risky tying up so much money just to hope you can trade Avril since I don't know if anyone will want to pay him as much as he seems to want.


Avril doesn't want to sign the tag, so we'd never be obligated to pay him the $10 million. He won't sign it, and he doesn't want another 1 year $10 million dollar deal. We could pull the tag at any time and let him walk away if we can't come to an agreement.

That said, Avril wants more than $10 mill a year. I don't think he'll get it, but that's what he wants. If we're going to keep him here without letting him hit FA, it's going to cost us $12 million per year. And honestly, if he hits FA he could likely land an $11-12 million per year contract. Teams are desperate for pass rushing DEs.


January 4th, 2013, 5:41 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
wjb21ndtown wrote:
rao wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
kdsberman wrote:
Hey Im not supporting the idea of tagging Delmas, i was just saying he would be cheaper.

I would be all for tagging and trading Avril, but the Lions already said they arent going to use the franchise tag. Again, not supporting it, just stating the facts.

Unfortunately, I see the Lions letting Avril walk, therefore getting NOTHING out of the deal.



I'm not shooting the messenger, I'm just pointing out facts too! :arrow: :idea:

I see us doing worse... I see us actually signing that bum for $12 million per year, and really screwing us. I'd much rather have Jake Long for a reasonable salary and draft a DE than over-pay Avril.


Well if they sign him for $12 million/yr instead of just tagging him for a second year Mayhew should be fired. I think Mayhew is smart enough not to tie up that much cap space with Avril, so that's why I bring up Delmas as the tag target. I did see that the Safety tag number is almost 7 million, so I'm going to say Mayhew is doing the right thing by not using the tag on anyone. It seems way to risky tying up so much money just to hope you can trade Avril since I don't know if anyone will want to pay him as much as he seems to want.


Avril doesn't want to sign the tag, so we'd never be obligated to pay him the $10 million. He won't sign it, and he doesn't want another 1 year $10 million dollar deal. We could pull the tag at any time and let him walk away if we can't come to an agreement.

That said, Avril wants more than $10 mill a year. I don't think he'll get it, but that's what he wants. If we're going to keep him here without letting him hit FA, it's going to cost us $12 million per year. And honestly, if he hits FA he could likely land an $11-12 million per year contract. Teams are desperate for pass rushing DEs.


Avril would get $12.7 million if we tag him again not $10 million, so if he's looking for 12 he may sign the tag. Also while the Lions are trying to deal him they will miss out on any of the higher end FAs that will sign earlier on, although they will miss on those guys anyways. I personally would like to just let him walk in FA and let some team like the Jags waste their cap space on him. Avril is a little overrated and doesn't play to the level of the contract he wants. The kinda money he wants should be for players that can beat double teams not for a DE that puts up second tier numbers while being one on one and in a defense designed to just pass rush.


January 4th, 2013, 7:53 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
rao wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
rao wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
kdsberman wrote:
Hey Im not supporting the idea of tagging Delmas, i was just saying he would be cheaper.

I would be all for tagging and trading Avril, but the Lions already said they arent going to use the franchise tag. Again, not supporting it, just stating the facts.

Unfortunately, I see the Lions letting Avril walk, therefore getting NOTHING out of the deal.



I'm not shooting the messenger, I'm just pointing out facts too! :arrow: :idea:

I see us doing worse... I see us actually signing that bum for $12 million per year, and really screwing us. I'd much rather have Jake Long for a reasonable salary and draft a DE than over-pay Avril.


Well if they sign him for $12 million/yr instead of just tagging him for a second year Mayhew should be fired. I think Mayhew is smart enough not to tie up that much cap space with Avril, so that's why I bring up Delmas as the tag target. I did see that the Safety tag number is almost 7 million, so I'm going to say Mayhew is doing the right thing by not using the tag on anyone. It seems way to risky tying up so much money just to hope you can trade Avril since I don't know if anyone will want to pay him as much as he seems to want.


Avril doesn't want to sign the tag, so we'd never be obligated to pay him the $10 million. He won't sign it, and he doesn't want another 1 year $10 million dollar deal. We could pull the tag at any time and let him walk away if we can't come to an agreement.

That said, Avril wants more than $10 mill a year. I don't think he'll get it, but that's what he wants. If we're going to keep him here without letting him hit FA, it's going to cost us $12 million per year. And honestly, if he hits FA he could likely land an $11-12 million per year contract. Teams are desperate for pass rushing DEs.


Avril would get $12.7 million if we tag him again not $10 million, so if he's looking for 12 he may sign the tag. Also while the Lions are trying to deal him they will miss out on any of the higher end FAs that will sign earlier on, although they will miss on those guys anyways. I personally would like to just let him walk in FA and let some team like the Jags waste their cap space on him. Avril is a little overrated and doesn't play to the level of the contract he wants. The kinda money he wants should be for players that can beat double teams not for a DE that puts up second tier numbers while being one on one and in a defense designed to just pass rush.


Ok, I'll re-phrase... Avril isn't going to sign any one year deal, he was pissed that we tagged him last year, he wants a multi-year deal, he doesn't want to be FTed. We don't stand to lose anything by at least attempting to tag Avril, and you can still trade a guy that's signed his tag. He wants a 5 year $60 million dollar deal with a ton of money upfront. That's what he's looking for, and in his mind, that's what he thinks he earned. There are some NFL teams that would agree that he deserves "Calias Campbell money." I can't say I feel the same way.

I wouldn't mind just letting him walk, especially if we can land Jake Long in the process. I'm just saying that I think we can and should tag and trade him. Perhaps it isn't feasible, but if Avril is anything close to the commodity that he thinks he is any team would be willing to give up a 2nd round pick for a proven starter that has 5+ years left in the tank.


January 4th, 2013, 8:01 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
Charles Johnson got $72M over 6 years with over $32M guaranteed. I think that is what avril will use as the stone setter this year. Johnson had 1 year as a starter and had 11.5 sacks. Avril will likely get 5 yrs $48M with $25M guaranteed.

Way too much money. Although, they can't afford to have kvb over there again next year, he's awful.

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January 4th, 2013, 8:24 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
KVB needs to be retained, for basically vet Min and as our 4th DE... if not 5th.. if retained at all. I like what he brings to the clubhouse, and could see him rotating in for freshness, but his tank is nearly empty.

If he goes (and retires) Id love to see them bring him in as a DL quality Control Coach (the low man on the totem pole). I think he has a future there.

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January 4th, 2013, 8:26 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
conversion02 wrote:
Charles Johnson got $72M over 6 years with over $32M guaranteed. I think that is what avril will use as the stone setter this year. Johnson had 1 year as a starter and had 11.5 sacks. Avril will likely get 5 yrs $48M with $25M guaranteed.

Way too much money. Although, they can't afford to have kvb over there again next year, he's awful.


See, I think Avril will get more like 5 years $60 mill, $25-30 guaranteed. He may even find a club that will give him the 6th year even though it's unlikely that he'll actually play it out.

Either way, 5 years $48, 5 years $60, I still think the "rent is too damn high!"

He's not worth it. If he were a legitimate "difference maker" then sure. He's just a legitimate starter, that's it. You have to account for him, but you don't have to game plan around him, that's the difference.


January 4th, 2013, 9:02 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
wjb21ndtown wrote:
conversion02 wrote:
Charles Johnson got $72M over 6 years with over $32M guaranteed. I think that is what avril will use as the stone setter this year. Johnson had 1 year as a starter and had 11.5 sacks. Avril will likely get 5 yrs $48M with $25M guaranteed.

Way too much money. Although, they can't afford to have kvb over there again next year, he's awful.


See, I think Avril will get more like 5 years $60 mill, $25-30 guaranteed. He may even find a club that will give him the 6th year even though it's unlikely that he'll actually play it out.

Either way, 5 years $48, 5 years $60, I still think the "rent is too damn high!"

He's not worth it. If he were a legitimate "difference maker" then sure. He's just a legitimate starter, that's it. You have to account for him, but you don't have to game plan around him, that's the difference.


This hit the nail on the head. I'd literally be furious if he's resigned for over $6 million a season. The dude is not even near Justin Tuck/Julius Peppers/John Abraham level of play, yet I unfortunately have a strong gut feeling he's getting a completely unnecessary contract, and Mayhew is making it happen.

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January 4th, 2013, 9:13 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
I said last year that I'd go as high as $8.5 for him. IMO that's the top of the market. At $6 I think you're getting a bargain, at $8 I think you're getting fair market value, at $8.5 I think you're getting screwed a bit, but it's worth it to land a vet that knows your system and is durable and is going to give you at least 8-10 sacks a year.


January 4th, 2013, 9:37 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
EIther they negotiate in good faith with Cliff and try to get a reasonable 7-8 million a year contract that will be cap friendly, or you simply let him walk. Tag, sign and trade requires he sign the tag. If he doesn't like where he's getting traded, then the same thing happens that happened last year, where we're on the hook for the 12.7 million against the cap from the from the outset. If he doesn't sign until training camp, you've killed the chances of possibly signing anyone else to a better deal.

There's no one worth tagging. You want Cliff at a certain price and if he thinks he's worth more, than move on. Willie, Lojack and others on the market will be much cheaper and be more effective against the run. Delmas isn't worth tagging at 6.5 million. He'll need to come at a much cheaper price due to his injury concerns and I'm sure they'll spend that money on a few players to fill the depth. There's no one else even worth mentioning the tag towards. All the cap problems are with players from before the rookie wage scale that need to be renegotiated.


January 4th, 2013, 11:42 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
nobody is going to lose any tears over losing players from a 4-12 team but still if you lose Avril you need 2 starting DEs. Mayhew wants playmakers and Avril is one. I dont think he played quite as well in 2012 as he did in 2011 and Avril knows it. We may be looking at something like 4 years 34 million and if thats the price I think it would be well worth bringing Avril back. A need would still remain on the other side. Willie Young and LoJack didnt show much this season and KVB showed that he is done. This works in Avril's favor even though he didnt have as great of a season himself. If they were working on a 2-3 year plan I could see them not bringing back Avril and keeping that resource open to helping other areas but this regime is battling for their jobs this season and they are more likely to keep a 26 year old with 40 career sacks and 16 forced fumbles then risk trying to find that kind of production elsewhere.


January 5th, 2013, 11:29 am
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
The Legend wrote:
nobody is going to lose any tears over losing players from a 4-12 team but still if you lose Avril you need 2 starting DEs. Mayhew wants playmakers and Avril is one. I dont think he played quite as well in 2012 as he did in 2011 and Avril knows it. We may be looking at something like 4 years 34 million and if thats the price I think it would be well worth bringing Avril back. A need would still remain on the other side. Willie Young and LoJack didnt show much this season and KVB showed that he is done. This works in Avril's favor even though he didnt have as great of a season himself. If they were working on a 2-3 year plan I could see them not bringing back Avril and keeping that resource open to helping other areas but this regime is battling for their jobs this season and they are more likely to keep a 26 year old with 40 career sacks and 16 forced fumbles then risk trying to find that kind of production elsewhere.


4 years $34 million is right in my wheel house of what I think is reasonable (it works out to be exactly $8.5 per year), but I still think he's going to demand more (and get more) coin than that.


January 5th, 2013, 4:21 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
I would hope that Mayhew realizes that if he signs Avril to a big deal he would be signing his own ticket out of Detroit. That much money in Avril would hamstring him, he wouldn't be able to do much of anything with the rest of the defense. The Avril issue is the problem with building the Dline from the inside out, the DTs have made Avril sit on that line of is he just good or is he actually a playmaker. Minny had the same problem way back, but they would just let their guys walk and fizz out somewhere else. I like the way the Giants built their Dline from the outside with DEs that are great pass rushers and can move inside on obvious passing downs. Even mediocre DEs cost too much damn money to have so much money already tied into the DTs. Mayhews best bet is to just use draft picks for the DEs and when they produce move them then reload. The lions shouldn't need great DEs when their DTs draw so much attention and have so much depth.


January 5th, 2013, 4:31 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
rao wrote:
I would hope that Mayhew realizes that if he signs Avril to a big deal he would be signing his own ticket out of Detroit. That much money in Avril would hamstring him, he wouldn't be able to do much of anything with the rest of the defense. The Avril issue is the problem with building the Dline from the inside out, the DTs have made Avril sit on that line of is he just good or is he actually a playmaker. Minny had the same problem way back, but they would just let their guys walk and fizz out somewhere else. I like the way the Giants built their Dline from the outside with DEs that are great pass rushers and can move inside on obvious passing downs. Even mediocre DEs cost too much damn money to have so much money already tied into the DTs. Mayhews best bet is to just use draft picks for the DEs and when they produce move them then reload. The lions shouldn't need great DEs when their DTs draw so much attention and have so much depth.


At the minimum its clear that Avril is a better player than KVB, Willie Young, and Lawrence Jackson so if you are going to let Avril leave you are losing your best DE and need to find 2 players better than the ones on the roster. Those guys showed they couldnt cut it. I dont think signing a good player like Avril hamstrings the team so long as other aspects of the team are not ignored like they were this past season. If Avril comes back on a 4 or 5 year deal it can be backloaded, incentivized, etc so that his salary cap number for 2013 is lower than the $10.6 he had this past season. They ll restructure Stafford and that ll lower his cap number by sevaral million as well. Corey Williams at $5milliion/season is probably not coming back. They could restructure Suh to lower cap number, etc.

The point is Avril is a guy that gets to the QB and forces turnovers, he is exactly the type of guy Mayhew claims to be looking for. The NFL salary cap can be manipulated by any number of methods though eventually it ll come back with dead money at some point. Mayhew will have to spend on guys like Avril and Houston - young productive players until some of his draft picks start panning out. WJB calls this "kicking the can down the road" but Mayhew has to do it this season. He cant afford to stand pat this season and start KVB on one side and Willie Young on the other and let Bentley and Jonte Green start at corner because he s worried about future cap problems. Mayhew, Schwartz, Cunningham, Linehan they re in this together and another disaster season will lose them all their jobs. You have to look at the situation from the perspective of the people making the decisions.


January 6th, 2013, 12:59 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
The Legend wrote:
rao wrote:
I would hope that Mayhew realizes that if he signs Avril to a big deal he would be signing his own ticket out of Detroit. That much money in Avril would hamstring him, he wouldn't be able to do much of anything with the rest of the defense. The Avril issue is the problem with building the Dline from the inside out, the DTs have made Avril sit on that line of is he just good or is he actually a playmaker. Minny had the same problem way back, but they would just let their guys walk and fizz out somewhere else. I like the way the Giants built their Dline from the outside with DEs that are great pass rushers and can move inside on obvious passing downs. Even mediocre DEs cost too much damn money to have so much money already tied into the DTs. Mayhews best bet is to just use draft picks for the DEs and when they produce move them then reload. The lions shouldn't need great DEs when their DTs draw so much attention and have so much depth.


At the minimum its clear that Avril is a better player than KVB, Willie Young, and Lawrence Jackson so if you are going to let Avril leave you are losing your best DE and need to find 2 players better than the ones on the roster. Those guys showed they couldnt cut it. I dont think signing a good player like Avril hamstrings the team so long as other aspects of the team are not ignored like they were this past season. If Avril comes back on a 4 or 5 year deal it can be backloaded, incentivized, etc so that his salary cap number for 2013 is lower than the $10.6 he had this past season. They ll restructure Stafford and that ll lower his cap number by sevaral million as well. Corey Williams at $5milliion/season is probably not coming back. They could restructure Suh to lower cap number, etc.

The point is Avril is a guy that gets to the QB and forces turnovers, he is exactly the type of guy Mayhew claims to be looking for. The NFL salary cap can be manipulated by any number of methods though eventually it ll come back with dead money at some point. Mayhew will have to spend on guys like Avril and Houston - young productive players until some of his draft picks start panning out. WJB calls this "kicking the can down the road" but Mayhew has to do it this season. He cant afford to stand pat this season and start KVB on one side and Willie Young on the other and let Bentley and Jonte Green start at corner because he s worried about future cap problems. Mayhew, Schwartz, Cunningham, Linehan they re in this together and another disaster season will lose them all their jobs. You have to look at the situation from the perspective of the people making the decisions.


Well if your saying Mayhew is only looking at saving his job then the future of the team his smartest move would be to ignore the defense and spend virtually everything on offense. If the offense can put up top 5 pts they have a better chance to put up a decent season than by half assing the defense. The back seven is devoid of playmakers and now with KVB showing he's got nothing left the Dline isn't as strong either. Mayhew just doesn't have enough resources to fix the defense in one offseason. Mayhew should just look to bring in more young athletic guys on defense as cheap as possible, resign Avril and hope the offense scores enough to make up for the poor defense.


January 6th, 2013, 9:46 pm
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