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 Schwartz 
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Post Re: Schwartz
wjb21ndtown wrote:
No other coach in Lions history, or perhaps even in the NFL has done less with that much talent.


Gotta love the over-exaggeration to drive home a point. :lol:

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January 10th, 2013, 1:25 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz
Pablo wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
No other coach in Lions history, or perhaps even in the NFL has done less with that much talent.


Gotta love the over-exaggeration to drive home a point. :lol:


Can you find me a roster that loaded with 1st-3rd round picks? I can't think of any... We've literally had so many bad years, coupled with trading away talent for picks, coupled with trading up for talent, that I don't think there has been a team, MAYBE the Cowboys after the Hershal trade, but THEY ACTUALLY WON!

:idea: :arrow:


January 10th, 2013, 1:26 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Pablo wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
No other coach in Lions history, or perhaps even in the NFL has done less with that much talent.


Gotta love the over-exaggeration to drive home a point. :lol:


Can you find me a roster that loaded with 1st-3rd round picks? I can't think of any... We've literally had so many bad years, coupled with trading away talent for picks, coupled with trading up for talent, that I don't think there has been a team, MAYBE the Cowboys after the Hershal trade, but THEY ACTUALLY WON!

:idea: :arrow:


And you were just saying how you would trade our roster for KC's in a heartbeat after they just won 2 games. \:D/

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January 10th, 2013, 1:31 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz
Pablo wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Pablo wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
No other coach in Lions history, or perhaps even in the NFL has done less with that much talent.


Gotta love the over-exaggeration to drive home a point. :lol:


Can you find me a roster that loaded with 1st-3rd round picks? I can't think of any... We've literally had so many bad years, coupled with trading away talent for picks, coupled with trading up for talent, that I don't think there has been a team, MAYBE the Cowboys after the Hershal trade, but THEY ACTUALLY WON!

:idea: :arrow:


And you were just saying how you would trade our roster for KC's in a heartbeat after they just won 2 games. \:D/


I would, definitely. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the roster is good. I think it's a pile of garbage, but the fact remains that Schwartz was heavy handed in putting together the roster he has, and many of the garbage picks were picks that he was directly involved with (Gos, Pett, Broyles, Titus, and Best). That's why I think Schwartz should be held accountable.


January 10th, 2013, 1:52 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz
Quote:
I would, definitely. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the roster is good. I think it's a pile of garbage, but the fact remains that Schwartz was heavy handed in putting together the roster he has, and many of the garbage picks were picks that he was directly involved with (Gos, Pett, Broyles, Titus, and Best). That's why I think Schwartz should be held accountable.
Gosder Cherilus was drafted by Millen in 2007, how would schwartz have his hand in that? and how are you going to trade a roster with that awful a qb situation for one that has a franchise qb? I think your underestimating how difficult it is to find a qb that you can see starting for your team for a long term future. The chiefs defense isnt that good either, alot of guys who didnt pan out but arent busts (tyson jackson, glen dorsey) while Suh and Fairley are looking like they can be dominate together. I believe their o-line situation is similar to ours as well, aging and one dimensional(we cant run block, they cant pass block) Im too lazy to see how old their o-line actually is though. Overall the chiefs roster is more talented, but i believe our roster is more stable(not talking financially) but because we have 3 bonified studs that can dictate the course of the game, the chiefs have one.


January 10th, 2013, 2:04 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz
millam21 wrote:
Quote:
I would, definitely. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the roster is good. I think it's a pile of garbage, but the fact remains that Schwartz was heavy handed in putting together the roster he has, and many of the garbage picks were picks that he was directly involved with (Gos, Pett, Broyles, Titus, and Best). That's why I think Schwartz should be held accountable.
Gosder Cherilus was drafted by Millen in 2007, how would schwartz have his hand in that? and how are you going to trade a roster with that awful a qb situation for one that has a franchise qb? I think your underestimating how difficult it is to find a qb that you can see starting for your team for a long term future. The chiefs defense isnt that good either, alot of guys who didnt pan out but arent busts (tyson jackson, glen dorsey) while Suh and Fairley are looking like they can be dominate together. I believe their o-line situation is similar to ours as well, aging and one dimensional(we cant run block, they cant pass block) Im too lazy to see how old their o-line actually is though. Overall the chiefs roster is more talented, but i believe our roster is more stable(not talking financially) but because we have 3 bonified studs that can dictate the course of the game, the chiefs have one.


1) Stafford has proven nothing, and he's due $40+ million in the next TWO YEARS ALONE.

2) Who cares about the Gos pick? My B.

Really? Difficult to find a Qb? Like I said, build the team and the Qb will fall into place. Look at Seattle, Washington, and Indy, all rookie Qbs. Flacco in Baltimore is nothing special, at all, and the list goes on. You fix the team and you make it easy for the Qb to succeed, and suddenly, they do! What a concept...

Wilson isn't anything special in Seattle, Cousins isn't anything special, yet he looked stellar on Washington too... Koperneck in SF is a bum, but he gets the job done. Smith sucks, but he got it done in SF too, and he would be much better if his confidence wasn't shot from the last several groups of morons.

You can plug and play virtually any Qb that doesn't completely suck in SF, Seattle, or Baltimore and they would succeed.

The Chiefs also have guys that DID pan out, and guys that are OVER ACHIEVING. Where's the Justin Houston on this team? Tell me ONE GUY that we've drafted that has gotten better since coming here. ONE GUY... Levy has gotten marginally better, and I stress MARGINALLY. He still stinks.


January 10th, 2013, 2:15 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz
Cousins looked stellar? When and where? He looked adequate against Atlanta (although he threw 2 picks and they lost the game by a score), was a whopping 2/2 for 26 yards against Baltimore in OT, and had a nice game against Cleveland. Better than expectations from a rookie who was forced into the spotlight in the pinch, but far from stellar.

In all fairness, you can say the reason Baltimore or SF hasn't won the Super Bowl recently is directly because of the complete adequacy of flacco, smith, and koepernick. None of those QBs are anywhere close to elite. Both have (and had) excellent run games.

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January 10th, 2013, 2:35 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz
Mikel Leshoure and Joique Bell clearly improved towards the end of the year even with a pedestrian interior o-line. Every player i saw promise from for improvement were hurt or a narcissist with a one game explosion (Broyles, Fairley, Young,) I think Gosder actually played decent this season and he used to suck. Suh had a good season although another outside rusher will take pressure off him to be so overly aggressive. OBVIOUSLY we need to re-work Staffords contract, but ill still take him over ANY of this years rookies long term and any other qb under 30 excluding aaron rodgers. A bad year for stafford saw him barley miss 60% completion and he only threw 20 tds but he ran in about 4 or 5 more. All the other teams are lucky they drafted their qbs when they did, or theyd be tied up just like we are. And Justin Houston? really? hes a scheme fit more than anything. The chiefs seem to be a paralell opposite of the lions. Good defense with an offense that couldnt win the close games. we had a good offense with a defense that couldnt close the deal(we did lose a couple due to an inability to get the ball moving too though.)

Bottom line. We had the hardest adjusted strength of schedule in the nfl, and still won 2 more games than a "more talented roster did." I truly believe that is because we have Stafford, Calvin, and Suh. The Chiefs honestly have nobody on their roster that scares me. and given that both of these rosters met in 2011, and we won 48-3.... yea. the chiefs arent that good. neither are we, but were definately better than they are.


January 10th, 2013, 2:48 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz
Quote:
Cousins looked stellar? When and where? He looked adequate against Atlanta (although he threw 2 picks and they lost the game by a score), was a whopping 2/2 for 26 yards against Baltimore in OT, and had a nice game against Cleveland. Better than expectations from a rookie who was forced into the spotlight in the pinch, but far from stellar.

In all fairness, you can say the reason Baltimore or SF hasn't won the Super Bowl recently is directly because of the complete adequacy of flacco, smith, and koepernick. None of those QBs are anywhere close to elite. Both have (and had) excellent run games.


i agree, except... BALTIMORES DEFENSE ISNT THAT GOOD ANYMORE PEOPLE!!!! they have star names, but is old and is easily scored on. the offense led by ray rice definitely drives that team.


January 10th, 2013, 2:50 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz
conversion02 wrote:
Cousins looked stellar? When and where? He looked adequate against Atlanta (although he threw 2 picks and they lost the game by a score), was a whopping 2/2 for 26 yards against Baltimore in OT, and had a nice game against Cleveland. Better than expectations from a rookie who was forced into the spotlight in the pinch, but far from stellar.

In all fairness, you can say the reason Baltimore or SF hasn't won the Super Bowl recently is directly because of the complete adequacy of flacco, smith, and koepernick. None of those QBs are anywhere close to elite. Both have (and had) excellent run games.


Cousins had Qb ratings of:
97, 158, and 104 in his NFL appearances... You're right, just adequate.

You could say that about Baltimore or SF, but Baltimore did with the SB in 2000, we haven't came close, Pitt and Tenn won it with similar platforms since, and we haven't sniffed the 2nd round of the playoffs in what? 20 years?

You can argue back and fourth about the importance of a "franchise Qb," but the bottom line is, it IS an argument, and the importance of such a player is disputable. One thing that isn't, create a solid team and you'll win games, make the playoffs and have a shot. Have a "franchise Qb," and a piss poor team, and you'll go 0-16 and 4-12 with regularity.


January 10th, 2013, 2:52 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz
Quote:
Cousins had Qb ratings of:
97, 158, and 104 in his NFL appearances... You're right, just adequate.
He plays for Shannahan, a coach who knows how to make guys look good. is it surprising hes looked serviceable in limited action?

Quote:
You can argue back and fourth about the importance of a "franchise Qb," but the bottom line is, it IS an argument, and the importance of such a player is disputable. One thing that isn't, create a solid team and you'll win games, make the playoffs and have a shot. Have a "franchise Qb," and a piss poor team, and you'll go 0-16 and 4-12 with regularity.

The bottom line is that teams with good to elite qbs are more succesful than ones who dont. Maybe not this year, but as a whole in the history of the nfl. Every dynasty had a qb who would have been considered elite during their era. the teams that regularly make it to the playoffs and fizzle are the teams that dont have a top tier qb. It seems you want to completely overhaul this roster. and you will more than likely get your wish with all the free agents this offseason. I agree there is too much money tied up into our core. however i think that problem is the reason we sucked this year, and were good last year. We were HEALTHY last year. We didnt have Brian Robiskie and Mike Thomas down the stretch. Our secondary stayed healthy as well (except of course delmas but thats a foregone conclusion he will get hurt.) Any way you spin it, were stuck with this core. I dont think you can just let a guy capable of throwing for 5000 yards and 40+ tds off your roster. Maybe we could trade Suh and make our defense exceptionally deep, but i dont think letting go of a qb this good ever works out.

Oh and dont get me wrong, I think were a couple years from being legit, and we need a different coaching staff. But to trade our roster for the chiefs would be nonsensical.


Last edited by millam21 on January 10th, 2013, 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.



January 10th, 2013, 3:07 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz
People can argue all they want about rosters, etc. But at the end of the day, it has to be about the coach's performance in leading the team and ability to project continued improvement for a coach - to me, that's what tells me whether they should stay.

Performance? OK - sure, Schwarts got into the playoffs last year, and ostensibly rallied the team to win a bunch of games they maybe should have lost. But this year? The opposite happened, and he himself appeared to cause one or two losses... there is no evidence the team will rally for him, and that implies perhaps 10-6 was as big an illusion for him as Dick Jauron's 13-3 season was for the Bears - when every single thing fell into place.

What is it about Schwartz that projects him as being able to continue improving the team? I don't see anything. And years/seasons are not to be thrown away, because windows to win are short for all but the best organizations.

That's why the Bears let Lovie go - he convinced the GM that he couldn't get them to win, yet the GM IS convinced they have the talent to win more than they did. To me, that was the right thing to do. And... it sounds exactly like the Lions situation.


January 10th, 2013, 3:09 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz
millam21 wrote:
Quote:
Cousins had Qb ratings of:
97, 158, and 104 in his NFL appearances... You're right, just adequate.
He plays for Shannahan, a coach who knows how to make guys look good. is it surprising hes looked serviceable in limited action?

Quote:
You can argue back and fourth about the importance of a "franchise Qb," but the bottom line is, it IS an argument, and the importance of such a player is disputable. One thing that isn't, create a solid team and you'll win games, make the playoffs and have a shot. Have a "franchise Qb," and a piss poor team, and you'll go 0-16 and 4-12 with regularity.


The bottom line is that teams with good to elite qbs are more succesful than ones who dont. Maybe not this year, but as a whole in the history of the nfl. Every dynasty had a qb who would have been considered elite during their era. the teams that regularly make it to the playoffs and fizzle are the teams that dont have a top tier qb. It seems you want to completely overhaul this roster. and you will more than likely get your wish with all the free agents this offseason. I agree there is too much money tied up into our core. however i think that problem is the reason we sucked this year, and were good last year. We were HEALTHY last year. We didnt have Brian Robiskie and Mike Thomas down the stretch. Our secondary stayed healthy as well (except of course delmas but thats a foregone conclusion he will get hurt.) Any way you spin it, were stuck with this core. I dont think you can just let a guy capable of throwing for 5000 yards and 40+ tds off your roster. Maybe we could trade Suh and make our defense exceptionally deep, but i dont think letting go of a qb this good ever works out.

Oh and dont get me wrong, I think were a couple years from being legit, and we need a different coaching staff. But to trade our roster for the chiefs would be nonsensical.


So in the advocacy for Schwartz thread, and in sticking up for him, you're admitting that other coaches do much more to put their players in a position to succeed? Brilliant...

What is a franchise Qb? Often it's the guy that ends up being the Qb on a dynasty team. Who created who? Was Kurt Warner this great Qb that was just happened to be bagging groceries, or did Martz and his system create Kurt Warner? Was Tom Brady the best overall player in his draft, and did each NFL team collectively make 190+ bad decisions in a row until he was selected in the 6th round, or did Billicheck and his system make him great?

What about guys like Steve Young or Carson Palmer... Both great Qbs coming out of college, one ruined and never matured, the other never materialized until he switched scenery. What about Brett Favre? Played with Atl, never got it done until he went to a better team. It's not all about the Qb. You HAVE TO HAVE A GOOD TEAM.

If you have a horrible team you'll never know what you have, or could have had at Qb. A poorly staffed/poorly ran NFL team can ruin a good Qb, strip him of all his confidence, and make him unable to perform literally anywhere.


January 10th, 2013, 3:16 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz
wjb21ndtown wrote:
What about Brett Favre? Played with Atl, never got it done until he went to a better team. It's not all about the Qb. You HAVE TO HAVE A GOOD TEAM.


Favre threw a total of 4 passes as a rookie for ATL before being traded to GB. Kind of hard to get it with only 4 passing opportunities... :lol:

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January 10th, 2013, 3:26 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz
Pablo wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
What about Brett Favre? Played with Atl, never got it done until he went to a better team. It's not all about the Qb. You HAVE TO HAVE A GOOD TEAM.


Favre threw a total of 4 passes as a rookie for ATL before being traded to GB. Kind of hard to get it with only 4 passing opportunities... :lol:



Yeah, I was gonna say, Brett Farve isn't the greatest example...


January 10th, 2013, 3:48 pm
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