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 Schwartz 
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Post Re: Schwartz
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Pablo wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
What about Brett Favre? Played with Atl, never got it done until he went to a better team. It's not all about the Qb. You HAVE TO HAVE A GOOD TEAM.


Favre threw a total of 4 passes as a rookie for ATL before being traded to GB. Kind of hard to get it with only 4 passing opportunities... :lol:


Brett Favre couldn't get on the field on a horrible ATL team, and ended up being a franchise QB for over a decade with GB. That's my point. Much like Steve Young, Qb talent is lost on a garbage team.

What's the difference with Brett Favre in ATL or Steve Young in TB? Neither did crap for their respective organizations before moving on to become a "franchise Qb."



Farve didn't get much of an opportunity in Atlanta. After his rookie year he went to Green Bay and lit it up.

If he had spent 3 or 4 years in Atlanta you'd have a better point.


January 11th, 2013, 9:58 am
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Post Re: Schwartz
wjb21ndtown wrote:
conversion02 wrote:
Aaron Rodgers is an MVP drafted in the first round that sat for years before starting. What's the point? Some teams just don't have the luxury of having 1st or 5th round rookie QBs sit. Some have to start them.



Quote:
What is a franchise Qb? Often it's the guy that ends up being the Qb on a dynasty team. Who created who? Was Kurt Warner this great Qb that was just happened to be bagging groceries, or did Martz and his system create Kurt Warner? Was Tom Brady the best overall player in his draft, and did each NFL team collectively make 190+ bad decisions in a row until he was selected in the 6th round, or did Billicheck and his system make him great?


Quote:
Wags, you're making my point for me. Are "franchise Qb's" these great individuals, or can they be created and groomed based on what's around them? That's the whole point. People on here act like "franchise Qb's" are these freaks of nature that are "awesome" and can "succeed anywhere," but they're not. They're very human, and they NEED a positive environment to succeed. That's my entire point.


Every team has the luxury of sitting a 5th round rookie and grooming that player to be the franchise Qb.
How many 5th+ round QBs have become franchise QBs? I know of Tom Brady, anyone else?

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January 11th, 2013, 1:07 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz
TheRealWags wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
conversion02 wrote:
Aaron Rodgers is an MVP drafted in the first round that sat for years before starting. What's the point? Some teams just don't have the luxury of having 1st or 5th round rookie QBs sit. Some have to start them.



Quote:
What is a franchise Qb? Often it's the guy that ends up being the Qb on a dynasty team. Who created who? Was Kurt Warner this great Qb that was just happened to be bagging groceries, or did Martz and his system create Kurt Warner? Was Tom Brady the best overall player in his draft, and did each NFL team collectively make 190+ bad decisions in a row until he was selected in the 6th round, or did Billicheck and his system make him great?


Quote:
Wags, you're making my point for me. Are "franchise Qb's" these great individuals, or can they be created and groomed based on what's around them? That's the whole point. People on here act like "franchise Qb's" are these freaks of nature that are "awesome" and can "succeed anywhere," but they're not. They're very human, and they NEED a positive environment to succeed. That's my entire point.


Every team has the luxury of sitting a 5th round rookie and grooming that player to be the franchise Qb.
How many 5th+ round QBs have become franchise QBs? I know of Tom Brady, anyone else?


Why you askin me? It was conversion's point... Tom Brady was a 6th though.

And I'll contend, every team has the opportunitty to sit any round rookie and develop them. It's a draft pick, spend it how you want.


January 11th, 2013, 1:17 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Are "franchise Qb's" these great individuals, or can they be created and groomed based on what's around them?
Both. The ones that are 'ready-made', like Peyton, will give you a quicker return on your investment whereas with ones that have to sit, learn & study, like Young, you'll have to wait a couple years. Perhaps another thing to consider is that the 'Peyton's' also give you the chance to be better, longer, rather than waiting an extra 3-5 years for the 'Young's' to 'get it'.

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January 11th, 2013, 1:18 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz
wjb21ndtown wrote:
TheRealWags wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
conversion02 wrote:
Aaron Rodgers is an MVP drafted in the first round that sat for years before starting. What's the point? Some teams just don't have the luxury of having 1st or 5th round rookie QBs sit. Some have to start them.
Quote:
What is a franchise Qb? Often it's the guy that ends up being the Qb on a dynasty team. Who created who? Was Kurt Warner this great Qb that was just happened to be bagging groceries, or did Martz and his system create Kurt Warner? Was Tom Brady the best overall player in his draft, and did each NFL team collectively make 190+ bad decisions in a row until he was selected in the 6th round, or did Billicheck and his system make him great?
Quote:
Wags, you're making my point for me. Are "franchise Qb's" these great individuals, or can they be created and groomed based on what's around them? That's the whole point. People on here act like "franchise Qb's" are these freaks of nature that are "awesome" and can "succeed anywhere," but they're not. They're very human, and they NEED a positive environment to succeed. That's my entire point.
Every team has the luxury of sitting a 5th round rookie and grooming that player to be the franchise Qb.
How many 5th+ round QBs have become franchise QBs? I know of Tom Brady, anyone else?
Why you askin me? It was conversion's point...
Sort of 'thinking out loud' if you will, apologies for the confusion
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Tom Brady was a 6th though.]Hence '5th+ round'
wjb21ndtown wrote:
And I'll contend, every team has the opportunitty to sit any round rookie and develop them. It's a draft pick, spend it how you want.
Agreed

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January 11th, 2013, 1:21 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz
IMO, part of the problem with most teams and their inability to find a starting Qb, is that they rush them into the league, KNOWING that they're not ready, just because they're the "best option on the team." It's like getting a payday advance loan... You can get by this week/season, but it's costing you big time in the long run.

Ryan Fitzpatrick, IMO, is a pretty good Qb, and he was a 7th round guy, but he was more or less brought up the right way. He didn't play much his first two seasons. Went to Cinn, played a season, went to Buffalo and he's a pretty good starting Qb, given the weapons around him.

Matt Shaub looks like a "franchise Qb," and he's a 3rd round draft pick. Andy Dalton looks like he could be a player, and he's a second round guy. Russel Wilson, and Matt Flynn both look better than decent in my book, and they're later round draft picks. I think a team can win with any of those guys, and if you make the game easy for the Qb (i.e. - put a team in front of time, give him an OL, give him a good D, and give him some targets... a-la Houston), he's going to succeed.

There are guys like Jim Sorgi that just flat out aren't capable of playing in the NFL, but there are guys like David Carr or Matt Leinert whom I think were capable Qbs, but they were just flat out ruined by playing on bad teams.


January 11th, 2013, 2:06 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz
Kind of makes you wonder the possibilities of SF if they had someone like Flynn as QB. He showed what he could do against us last year, so I wonder what he could do under the kind of coaching like Harbaugh. That would be interesting, considering Lucks progression under Harbaugh.

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January 11th, 2013, 2:27 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Kind of makes you wonder the possibilities of SF if they had someone like Flynn as QB. He showed what he could do against us last year, so I wonder what he could do under the kind of coaching like Harbaugh. That would be interesting, considering Lucks progression under Harbaugh.


Agreed... And, IMO, Kopernek is absolutely HORRIBLE. He's too damn hyper and high-strung with his tongue always hanging out and he's always flexing everywhere. Maybe if he can calm down and get it together, but he's one of those people that I feel is just fundamentally wrong for the position. IMO you want someone more even keel, that keeps his wits about him, more of a cerebral player. Kopernek is definitely not that, but he is "the man" according to his teammates.


January 11th, 2013, 2:37 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz
The problem with Shaub and QBs around his skill set is that when asked to take over a game he struggles and shows his ceiling. As far as Fitzs he is an average at best talent with a really weak arm that actually crippled the Bills offense by not being able to stretch the field. He had a good five games last year against some lesser teams. The Bills went "Whoa" we better lock him up, then the competition got tougher and everyone went "uh oh" there goes that $$$. With Wilson I don't think there were many that didn't like his skill set but were scared off by his smaller stature and that is something that still baffles me. If he were 6'2" he would have been right in the battle to be #1 with Luck and RGIII. As car as Flynn when he came out I liked what I saw and thought he'd be a nice developmental guy but the "?" is still there when he's only lit up a Lion's defense and was seemingly never in the running to be the man in Seattle once Wilson hit the field.

Dalton was a potential 1st rounder an I know this is only his 2nd year but kind if has that look of a guy like Shaub. I like all these guys but they aren't any different than 1st rounders that bust or late rounders that have shined, it's a crap shoot. To say you pass on a potential elite QB like Stafford in the 1st round and wait for a Brady is crazy. There isn't one person and that includes me a guy that is always looking for the hidden gem bargain that would say no to taking Luck last year and saying "I'll wait and take Cousins."

I will agree there have been guys like Russell, Young, Leinhart, and guys this year like Smith and Barclay I'd pass on. I also agree about guys like Carr being ruined and say the same thing goes for Joey. The Lions were so bad on that side of the ball that a QB was the worst thing to go for that year and Joey just didn't look a wow player. I think he was worthy of a 1st round pick just not top 10 and to a team as bad as Detroit was.


January 11th, 2013, 2:47 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz
sweetd20 wrote:
The problem with Shaub and QBs around his skill set is that when asked to take over a game he struggles and shows his ceiling. As far as Fitzs he is an average at best talent with a really weak arm that actually crippled the Bills offense by not being able to stretch the field. He had a good five games last year against some lesser teams. The Bills went "Whoa" we better lock him up, then the competition got tougher and everyone went "uh oh" there goes that $$$. With Wilson I don't think there were many that didn't like his skill set but were scared off by his smaller stature and that is something that still baffles me. If he were 6'2" he would have been right in the battle to be #1 with Luck and RGIII. As car as Flynn when he came out I liked what I saw and thought he'd be a nice developmental guy but the "?" is still there when he's only lit up a Lion's defense and was seemingly never in the running to be the man in Seattle once Wilson hit the field.

Dalton was a potential 1st rounder an I know this is only his 2nd year but kind if has that look of a guy like Shaub. I like all these guys but they aren't any different than 1st rounders that bust or late rounders that have shined, it's a crap shoot. To say you pass on a potential elite QB like Stafford in the 1st round and wait for a Brady is crazy. There isn't one person and that includes me a guy that is always looking for the hidden gem bargain that would say no to taking Luck last year and saying "I'll wait and take Cousins."

I will agree there have been guys like Russell, Young, Leinhart, and guys this year like Smith and Barclay I'd pass on. I also agree about guys like Carr being ruined and say the same thing goes for Joey. The Lions were so bad on that side of the ball that a QB was the worst thing to go for that year and Joey just didn't look a wow player. I think he was worthy of a 1st round pick just not top 10 and to a team as bad as Detroit was.


I may disagree with you on a couple of players, but I agree wholeheartedly in principle.


January 11th, 2013, 9:08 pm
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