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 Off-Season Moves 
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
Shotty wrote:
rao wrote:
Shotty wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Shotty wrote:
Guys, I had no clue this offseason will be stacked with good offensive linemen! So not only will the draft have many good offensive line prospects. Look at all these guys who will be FAs:

http://www.footballsfuture.com/2013/fa/ol.html

Man, oh man we could do some special things next season with a big off-season.


Too bad we don't have any damn money. There was an article on DetroitLions.com that said we could have 4 new guys on the OL next season playing with Sims. I'm sure Raiola loved that one.


Which is why I've been calling for Avrils release for a year now. Let him go and replace him with a 1st-2nd rounder to get equal talent for way less $, Avril is atrocious against the run and a very inconsistent pass rusher. He's inover his head expecting that kind of money.

Fox-Sims-Nagy-FA/draft pick-Reiff wouldn't be half bad if they all beat their competitors out in training camp and would net us extremely useful and needed cap comfort.


Fox is not going to be the starting LT, he can't even stay healthy sitting on the bench. If it's not Backus then it'll be Reiff unless they somehow sign a FA LT like Long or draft a guy that destroys in practice. Nagy will have to be incredibly good in camp for them to let Raiola go because he hasn't even played a game for them yet, but it's possible since he did start 4 games as a rookie before he fractured his ankle. I think Nagy will start in a hole compared to Raiola since Dominic has some magical hold on every coach that takes over the Lions and Fox starting at LT next year has probably only slightly better odds than someone on Lionbacker getting struck by lightning.


Fox's only issue, aside from injuries, has been his strength. What the hell is holding him back if he gained lots of strength since he got healthy again? Nagy replacing Raiola seems like an aberration but it's possible. A Cowboys fan told me he looked like a bright center stepping in as a rookie and was a good run-blocker (which seems to not be allowed on our line) but shabby at pass-blocking. Now, this is a rookie, picked in the 7th round, stepping in for a injured center, of course he won't be great at first, but from what I heard he has a good "base" to start around. Also, he may replace Peterman. He can play guard/center.



You have to remember though, you're more or less advocating relying on two guys that have never stayed healthy for an entire season of football to start for us, and one guy that hasn't started for more than one game to do the same. That's further complicated by the fact that this is a team allegedly built for a high-powered passing attack, and throws the ball 40+ times per game.

Nagy isn't a great pass blocker, and he's young. Playing OC is just as much about reading the D as it is picking up your blocking assignment. I don't think it's prudent to trust Nagy in that role as of yet, for both his injury concerns, and his lack of experience. Honestly, I'd rather hand the reigns over to a rookie that just completed a season of NCAA ball, than Nagy who has two years of rust caked on him. That being said, I'm much more comfortable starting Nagy at Peterson's spot than I am having Fox play anywhere on this OL.

Fox's "only issue" isn't just "injury and strength," it's also a lack of experience, both in practice and on the field. You can't see what you have in a player when he's hurt and when he's weak. Those injuries have not only kept him off of the field, but they've caused him to miss significant amounts of practice time. Further, he's never proven it on the field because he's been weak and/or banged up. Until you actually see what you have in this project player, you have to have another viable alternative. Albert to play LT/OG if Fox works out would be fine, Jake Long in the same role, etc. You have to not only have a backup plan, but you have to have someone solid waiting in the wings (maybe keep Backus, but that's just getting flat out silly at this point) even if you think Fox is "ready."

Our draft has to be predicated on where Joeckel goes. Thankfully KC is the team most likely to pick him, and we're going to know their pick well before the draft. Phili is another option, but I think they'll go D. If Joeckel falls to us, IMO, we have to draft him to be our franchise LT for the next 10 years, have Reiff play RT, Sims is solid, and get Nagy to replace Peterman for a year, see if he holds up, and keep Dom at OC for one more year. IMO that's the best case scenario, unless we can get a more solid vet to play the other OG spot, and just flat out groom Nagy to play OC, but even at that, I wouldn't want to rely on just him for a complete season that he's never been able to stay healthy for.


January 20th, 2013, 1:08 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Shotty wrote:
rao wrote:
Shotty wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Shotty wrote:
Guys, I had no clue this offseason will be stacked with good offensive linemen! So not only will the draft have many good offensive line prospects. Look at all these guys who will be FAs:

http://www.footballsfuture.com/2013/fa/ol.html

Man, oh man we could do some special things next season with a big off-season.


Too bad we don't have any damn money. There was an article on DetroitLions.com that said we could have 4 new guys on the OL next season playing with Sims. I'm sure Raiola loved that one.


Which is why I've been calling for Avrils release for a year now. Let him go and replace him with a 1st-2nd rounder to get equal talent for way less $, Avril is atrocious against the run and a very inconsistent pass rusher. He's inover his head expecting that kind of money.

Fox-Sims-Nagy-FA/draft pick-Reiff wouldn't be half bad if they all beat their competitors out in training camp and would net us extremely useful and needed cap comfort.


Fox is not going to be the starting LT, he can't even stay healthy sitting on the bench. If it's not Backus then it'll be Reiff unless they somehow sign a FA LT like Long or draft a guy that destroys in practice. Nagy will have to be incredibly good in camp for them to let Raiola go because he hasn't even played a game for them yet, but it's possible since he did start 4 games as a rookie before he fractured his ankle. I think Nagy will start in a hole compared to Raiola since Dominic has some magical hold on every coach that takes over the Lions and Fox starting at LT next year has probably only slightly better odds than someone on Lionbacker getting struck by lightning.


Fox's only issue, aside from injuries, has been his strength. What the hell is holding him back if he gained lots of strength since he got healthy again? Nagy replacing Raiola seems like an aberration but it's possible. A Cowboys fan told me he looked like a bright center stepping in as a rookie and was a good run-blocker (which seems to not be allowed on our line) but shabby at pass-blocking. Now, this is a rookie, picked in the 7th round, stepping in for a injured center, of course he won't be great at first, but from what I heard he has a good "base" to start around. Also, he may replace Peterman. He can play guard/center.



You have to remember though, you're more or less advocating relying on two guys that have never stayed healthy for an entire season of football to start for us, and one guy that hasn't started for more than one game to do the same. That's further complicated by the fact that this is a team allegedly built for a high-powered passing attack, and throws the ball 40+ times per game.

Nagy isn't a great pass blocker, and he's young. Playing OC is just as much about reading the D as it is picking up your blocking assignment. I don't think it's prudent to trust Nagy in that role as of yet, for both his injury concerns, and his lack of experience. Honestly, I'd rather hand the reigns over to a rookie that just completed a season of NCAA ball, than Nagy who has two years of rust caked on him. That being said, I'm much more comfortable starting Nagy at Peterson's spot than I am having Fox play anywhere on this OL.

Fox's "only issue" isn't just "injury and strength," it's also a lack of experience, both in practice and on the field. You can't see what you have in a player when he's hurt and when he's weak. Those injuries have not only kept him off of the field, but they've caused him to miss significant amounts of practice time. Further, he's never proven it on the field because he's been weak and/or banged up. Until you actually see what you have in this project player, you have to have another viable alternative. Albert to play LT/OG if Fox works out would be fine, Jake Long in the same role, etc. You have to not only have a backup plan, but you have to have someone solid waiting in the wings (maybe keep Backus, but that's just getting flat out silly at this point) even if you think Fox is "ready."

Our draft has to be predicated on where Joeckel goes. Thankfully KC is the team most likely to pick him, and we're going to know their pick well before the draft. Phili is another option, but I think they'll go D. If Joeckel falls to us, IMO, we have to draft him to be our franchise LT for the next 10 years, have Reiff play RT, Sims is solid, and get Nagy to replace Peterman for a year, see if he holds up, and keep Dom at OC for one more year. IMO that's the best case scenario, unless we can get a more solid vet to play the other OG spot, and just flat out groom Nagy to play OC, but even at that, I wouldn't want to rely on just him for a complete season that he's never been able to stay healthy for.


That would be a great scenario. The offensive line would have some balance on it, the whole line other than Raiola could run- and pass-block well and we could focus on more important things in FA. I just don't see the Chiefs passing up their biggest need and risking a player with VERY high potential (Geno) getting taken by another team to grab a tackle, a position they're already strong at.

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January 20th, 2013, 1:19 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
But the Chiefs aren't strong at the position since Albert is a free agent and really isn't a top level LT. He's a better than average LT that will cost a whole lot of money to keep. The Chiefs would be much smarter taking Joeckel and spending the cap space on guys that will fit with their new staff. If the Chiefs can land a guy like Alex Smith in FA then there is almost no reason for them to take a QB early. Also I just don't see any of the QBs grading out better than Joeckel even after their prodays and the combine, it's just not a good QB year.


January 20th, 2013, 3:53 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
rao wrote:
But the Chiefs aren't strong at the position since Albert is a free agent and really isn't a top level LT. He's a better than average LT that will cost a whole lot of money to keep. The Chiefs would be much smarter taking Joeckel and spending the cap space on guys that will fit with their new staff. If the Chiefs can land a guy like Alex Smith in FA then there is almost no reason for them to take a QB early. Also I just don't see any of the QBs grading out better than Joeckel even after their prodays and the combine, it's just not a good QB year.


I agree with you, and agree with the team building philosophy of creating a solid team, and getting your Qb later, when he's in a position to succeed. There are rare players like Andrew Luck that I would draft "out of order" of my ideal team building philosophy, but there are none of those rare Qbs in this draft.

Sadly, I too think Joeckel is going to get drafted #1 overall, unless a Qb really tears it up at the combine. That said, IMO it's going to largely depend on the team building philosophy of the incoming GM. If he's a classic, "get your franchise Qb, groom him, and build the team around him" guy, we may have a shot.

I think it's still important to note that Cassel is still under contract, it will cost them nearly $5 million to cut him, and they'll only save around $2.5 mill by cutting him. He really hasn't been given much of chance in KC, and they may decide to give him one more year. He has regressed since his second season in KC, when he actually had a pretty good year, and given that most of Cassel's money owed to him next year and the year after is NOT guaranteed, it's also likely he could re-negotiate his deal. If he's willing to take a reduction of salary from $7.5 million to around $5 million, keeping his is virtually free.


January 20th, 2013, 4:09 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
Wjb, how can you say he hasn't gotten much of a chance in KC? He's been the starter for 4 years. He had 2 good years (his second was the best, not sure how you say he regressed), then he wrecked his hand in his third year and was hurt on and off all last year. He's going into year 5 on a 6 year deal. The whole thing sounds similar to our very own QB, but I don't see many people saying he hasn't gotten much of a chance.

They've tried giving him weapons on offense. Howe, Charles, thomas jones, Baldwin, breaston, pope, chambers, mccluster, etc. they also brought in numerous QBs for competition, such as Orton and Quinn.

I just hope that there are 2 or 3 QBs that just dominate the combines. Good lord we need a trade down if this team wants to go 8-8 next year

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January 20th, 2013, 7:11 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
conversion02 wrote:
Wjb, how can you say he hasn't gotten much of a chance in KC? He's been the starter for 4 years. He had 2 good years (his second was the best, not sure how you say he regressed), then he wrecked his hand in his third year and was hurt on and off all last year. He's going into year 5 on a 6 year deal. The whole thing sounds similar to our very own QB, but I don't see many people saying he hasn't gotten much of a chance.

They've tried giving him weapons on offense. Howe, Charles, thomas jones, Baldwin, breaston, pope, chambers, mccluster, etc. they also brought in numerous QBs for competition, such as Orton and Quinn.

I just hope that there are 2 or 3 QBs that just dominate the combines. Good lord we need a trade down if this team wants to go 8-8 next year


Oh sorry... I was just referring to his hand injury and possibility that it was still plaguing him. I know he hasn't played a full season in the last 2-3 years.


January 20th, 2013, 7:27 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
It probably is. I believe it was his throwing hand and he had surgery on it. I know the year he wrecked his hand he was playing well, but couldnt get into the endzone (sound familiar?). Last year I know he missed some time with a concussion. Not sure what else though.

I really hope they restructure some contracts, cut some dead weight (kvb, Logan, peterman,etc) and go with younger, cheaper talent. This team should be looking at 2-3 years down the road, not the overnight quick fix while dealing with salary cap hell.

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January 20th, 2013, 7:40 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
@CO2, i dont think our FO can afford not to go for the quick fix

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January 20th, 2013, 10:48 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
I know, but none of us give a rats rectum about their jobs. They can afford to and they need to. Otherwise they are delaying the inevitable barely there mediocrity

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January 20th, 2013, 10:53 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
Killwill25 wrote:
@CO2, i dont think our FO can afford not to go for the quick fix


Think you're right. Also think that's the reason we could only get that scrub for to be our ST coach--word is probably all around the NFL that if next season doesn't pan out, they're gonna clean house.

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January 20th, 2013, 10:54 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
conversion02 wrote:
It probably is. I believe it was his throwing hand and he had surgery on it. I know the year he wrecked his hand he was playing well, but couldnt get into the endzone (sound familiar?). Last year I know he missed some time with a concussion. Not sure what else though.

I really hope they restructure some contracts, cut some dead weight (kvb, Logan, peterman,etc) and go with younger, cheaper talent. This team should be looking at 2-3 years down the road, not the overnight quick fix while dealing with salary cap hell.


See CO2, that's why I was so pissed last offseason. We should have cut some of the fat last offseason, and brought in some new faces to not make this offseason so burdensome. If we would have used Nates $3.5 million better, Peterman's $3 million better, put a plan in place to replace Dom and save $3 million in 2013, used Cory's $5 million better, and did our restructuring and bringing in some new faces last offseason, then this offseason wouldn't look so bad. That right there is $14 million in two years, and Avril is another $10. That's huge. $24 million in savings in two years.

Nate shouldn't have been "restructured" he should have been replaced with a cap-friendly longer-term deal, Peterman is 2 years over-due, and Logan never should have made the roster last year. I do think last season KVB was worth keeping around, but Mayhew severely mismanaged the Cliff Avril situation. Mayhew had it in his head that Avril was going to jump at 8-10 million per, and there was a ton of evidence to the contrary. That handcuffed the whole damn team last year, but at the end of the day, IMO Avril shouldn't have ever been offered that kind of coin.

Now this team needs 2-3 year plan, with an attempt to retain CJ, Staff, and possibly Suh (there's a lot of ppl calling for us to trade him at this point), but we were just in the playoffs last year! I do think a bit of that wasn't really legitimate, and I do think a lot of our success was based on an easy schedule, but that doesn't mean we had to regress. We could have had a great offseason and built on that success, instead we literally did nothing, stood pat, let our cap situation get worse, let our team get older, and we regressed. That's why I was so pissed last offseason. I saw this type of season and this type of situation coming, and hated every minute of it.


January 20th, 2013, 11:04 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
conversion02 wrote:
I know, but none of us give a rats rectum about their jobs. They can afford to and they need to. Otherwise they are delaying the inevitable barely there mediocrity

you are right about what they should do but they haven't shown the ability to do the right thing on a consistant basis. And thats how you win 1 playoff game and 50 years.

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January 21st, 2013, 3:10 am
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
Looks like the Lions just hired Jim Washburn as a defensive assistant. I'm not sure what to make of it, but we better get used to the idea of one more year with wide 9.


January 22nd, 2013, 5:43 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
DayDreamer wrote:
Looks like the Lions just hired Jim Washburn as a defensive assistant. I'm not sure what to make of it, but we better get used to the idea of one more year with wide 9.


Well when Washburn came in, Philly led the league in sacks. Costillo didn't know what he was doing and he got canned along with Washburn in December. Washburn spent 12 years in Tennessee before Philly, which included the entire time Schwartz was there. He's being brought in as a defensive assistant since our DL coach is coaching at the Senior Bowl, and I think it'll be good for Gun to have another set of eyes helping him, just like the Offensive assistant will give Linehan another set of eyes. Washburn's son was promoted to offensive line coach earlier in the month.

Most of the guys they brought in have a lot of years of experience in the league and adding an offensive and defensive assistant should help at the very least keep the coordinators honest, and if things go sour early, there's someone to step in if one needs to get canned.

As for the wide 9... it's only placing the ends 3-4 yards wider. It allows them to attack whether against the run or the pass. The problem we've had is KVB got old, and Avril has never been strong against the run. His angle is always too wide, and last season his sacks made up for the lack of run support, this year it didn't. Lojack got limited snaps, but he was able to be very effective against the run in the scheme. And I think that's where Washburn will help. If we resign Cliff, he needs to be better vs the run. If they draft a DE, I'm sure they'll make sure he can do both. Lojack was our only strong run support DE, so he needs to be retained. Avril, Young and KVB are strong against the pass, but weren't effective this year. KVB needs to go, Young can be tendered cheap, and Avril needs to take a reasonable cap number or he can walk.

As for the weakness against the wham trap runs... that's coaching plain and simple. You know it's coming, you just have to watch for it and adjust. The DL coaching needs to emphasize it or no amount of talent is going to make a difference.


January 23rd, 2013, 4:29 am
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
The best is that he's going to continue to run the wide 9 because it fits the personnel, really? Avril is gone, KVB is well past being effective, and Willie Young although likely re-signed is a FA. So because the scheme fits Suh and Fairley they are going to keep running it? This past season they actually ran it less and Suh had his numbers improve and Fairley looked better this year. When they went almost exclusively wide 9 in 2011 teams just rode Suh or simply let him run right past the play. Maybe the wide 9 can be more effective but they need an entire new back 7 that can fill runnin lanes and cover for at least two seconds to allow the pass rush to get there. I think Schwartz is demonstrating the definition of insanity.


January 23rd, 2013, 7:18 am
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