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 Lions place Titus Young on IR 
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Post Re: Lions place Titus Young on IR
BillySims wrote:
So, you want to buy high and sell low? You aren't a businessman are you? If you are, you won't remain in business long.


Trading Suh right now isn't "buying high and selling low." We got some great years out of him at DT, he's still on his rookie contract, and he's earned his paycheck. We "bought" him for a first round pick, and we could likely get a first round pick for him. His value is higher right now with two years left on his rookie deal, than it will be after next season with one year left. We would get good value for Suh if we traded him now.

BillySims wrote:
What Suh brings does not always show up in your stats page. Frequently, he has crushed the pocket and gotten in the QB's face and forced a bad throw. That doesn't show up in stats. Every time he forces a RB to re-route and gets tackled for a loss by some-one else... That doesn't show up on Suh's Stats.

Is Suh immature? Probably. Is he a lost cause? Not by a long shot. He has not even come close to Titus young territory yet. In short, there is still hope for Suh to get his head out of his rectum. For all the bad that has come with Suh, there has been a lot of good also.


The same can be said about ANY DT IN THE LEAGUE. The bottom line is that DTs do things that affect the defense elsewhere. With all of Suh's intangibles, and everything he has done for this team; our rush D is horrible, and our pass D is horrible, and those numbers CAN be measured. So, how great is he? How great of value is he to our team? Is he a $15 million dollar man, or would we be better suited to pay someone $5-7 mill a year at DT and have a $10 million linebacker behind him?

I don't know about you, but I'll go with option 2...


January 31st, 2013, 2:33 pm
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Post Re: Lions place Titus Young on IR
wjb21ndtown wrote:
BillySims wrote:
So, you want to buy high and sell low? You aren't a businessman are you? If you are, you won't remain in business long.


Trading Suh right now isn't "buying high and selling low." We got some great years out of him at DT, he's still on his rookie contract, and he's earned his paycheck. We "bought" him for a first round pick, and we could likely get a first round pick for him. His value is higher right now with two years left on his rookie deal, than it will be after next season with one year left. We would get good value for Suh if we traded him now.


Nice. You quoted me. But, you failed to put my statement into context of what I quoted. Shotty said this, "If we could get a 6th and 2nd round from Titus & Suh, that'd be amazing." Sorry. Only getting a 2nd round pick for a guy we spent a 1st round pick on is exactly Buying high and selling low.

BillySims wrote:
What Suh brings does not always show up in your stats page. Frequently, he has crushed the pocket and gotten in the QB's face and forced a bad throw. That doesn't show up in stats. Every time he forces a RB to re-route and gets tackled for a loss by some-one else... That doesn't show up on Suh's Stats.
Is Suh immature? Probably. Is he a lost cause? Not by a long shot. He has not even come close to Titus young territory yet. In short, there is still hope for Suh to get his head out of his rectum. For all the bad that has come with Suh, there has been a lot of good also.


wjb21ndtown wrote:
The same can be said about ANY DT IN THE LEAGUE. The bottom line is that DTs do things that affect the defense elsewhere. With all of Suh's intangibles, and everything he has done for this team; our rush D is horrible, and our pass D is horrible, and those numbers CAN be measured. So, how great is he? How great of value is he to our team? Is he a $15 million dollar man, or would we be better suited to pay someone $5-7 mill a year at DT and have a $10 million linebacker behind him?

I don't know about you, but I'll go with option 2...


Did I say that we shouldn't trade Suh? While I am not eager to trade him, if he is traded, I would expect to get back at least the 1st round pick we spent on him. I would actually expect more than just that 1st round pick. Suh won the defensive rookie of the year award for his rookie year. So, IMHO, that should only increase his value in a trade. So we should be able to get a 1st rounder plus something else.


January 31st, 2013, 2:55 pm
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Post Re: Lions place Titus Young on IR
sweetd20 wrote:
Haloti Ngata had the tag back in 2011 and I think it was $12 million then. I could care less if Suh is a bad driver or that the media doesn't like him; but the Lions can't keep him or any other $12 million or more player with CJ's contract and Stafford once he signs a deal that will average $12-15 million. Well they can but the rest of the team will be average at best. If the Lions want to be real contenders for a long stretch I can't see Suh being part of that picture. I really like Suh but the financials don't work. To take that a little further if they re-sign Fairly for more than $5 million a year when his contract is up they'd be making another mistake. He's a good player but it comes in sporadic spurts and he is a guy that will always be in the trainers room or on the sideline.

I'll take a couple of big lane pluggers that occupy three blockers on every play and collapse the pocket over sack artist DTs any day. Some of the best DT duos have been guys like the Williams boys in Minny, Adams and Siragusa with Baltimore, and Adams and Williams when they were in Buffalo. Those big guys clog running lanes, collapse pockets, open up lanes for blitzers and free up the DEs to make plays.


According to Wikipedia, the franchise tag for a DT is around $7 million.

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January 31st, 2013, 2:58 pm
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Post Re: Lions place Titus Young on IR
I forgot they changed it to top 5 not top 3 but it will still be over $10 million and likely well over $12 million by the time Suh were eligible for the tag.


January 31st, 2013, 3:09 pm
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Post Re: Lions place Titus Young on IR
Billy, Suh may have won the Droy award, but he's fallen flat since then. His trade value is in his upside and the fact that there's still two years left on his rookie deal to evaluate him. He's proven that he can be dominant, but it remains to be seen if he has the fire and desire.

I wouldn't be happy with a 2nd round pick for Suh, but if we did get a 2nd round pick for him, isn't that better than nothing when his contract is up?


January 31st, 2013, 3:32 pm
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Post Re: Lions place Titus Young on IR
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Billy, Suh may have won the Droy award, but he's fallen flat since then. His trade value is in his upside and the fact that there's still two years left on his rookie deal to evaluate him. He's proven that he can be dominant, but it remains to be seen if he has the fire and desire.

I wouldn't be happy with a 2nd round pick for Suh, but if we did get a 2nd round pick for him, isn't that better than nothing when his contract is up?


I am not convinced he is going to leave us at the 1st opportunity. Heck, I don't think he will have the chance until his third opportunity. ( We can tag him twice. Side note: The CBA prevents anyone from being tagged 3 times.) And I also believe that our cap problems will be a thing of the past as soon as the new TV contracts come into effect. So, kicking the can down the road is exactly the right strategy to handle the cap issues right now. It's better to do that and continue building the team, then to tear the team apart and start over. A couple of years from now, the Cap is going to skyrocket upwards. Most guys won't take the TY approach to getting what they want. And absolutely no-one will sit out rather than sign the Franchise tag. Even if it is a sit out until the last second kind of thing.


January 31st, 2013, 3:55 pm
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Post Re: Lions place Titus Young on IR
If a mod wants to spin this off into it's own thread that would be great. Now as far as trading Suh I think they could get a 1st rounder for him as long as a team needing a DT has the cap space to give him a new contract. I've said this in inevitable for at least a year now and as long as Calvin's contract is on the books I can't see how it's avoidable. If I were the Lions I'd be on the phone with the Cowboys and try to get at the minimum their 2nd rounder and Bruce Carter. They are switching to the Tampa Two and could use a penetrating DT like Suh and if Sean Lee is healthy they won't need Carter. I'd rather have their 1st rounder and something else but like I said I'd take no less than that.

I also don't see trading Suh as the Lions opening up another need. They have Fairley, can likely re-sign Hill, and then sign a guy like Kwame Geathers in the 4th-5th round. Geathers has the size at something like 6'4" and 355 lbs and the athleticism having played DE in Georgia's 3-4. He would be a project like Hill was but he has the size I like at the DT position. They would then have at the least hopefully that 2nd rounder to add a DB, O-Line, or any player at another need that may have slipped into the 2nd round. Plus they would have Carter to compete with Tulloch at MLB. If Carter won out Tulloch could slide to WLB or is Tulloch held his spot Carter could fill the SLB spot.


January 31st, 2013, 4:05 pm
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Post Re: Lions place Titus Young on IR
BillySims wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Billy, Suh may have won the Droy award, but he's fallen flat since then. His trade value is in his upside and the fact that there's still two years left on his rookie deal to evaluate him. He's proven that he can be dominant, but it remains to be seen if he has the fire and desire.

I wouldn't be happy with a 2nd round pick for Suh, but if we did get a 2nd round pick for him, isn't that better than nothing when his contract is up?


I am not convinced he is going to leave us at the 1st opportunity. Heck, I don't think he will have the chance until his third opportunity. ( We can tag him twice. Side note: The CBA prevents anyone from being tagged 3 times.) And I also believe that our cap problems will be a thing of the past as soon as the new TV contracts come into effect. So, kicking the can down the road is exactly the right strategy to handle the cap issues right now. It's better to do that and continue building the team, then to tear the team apart and start over. A couple of years from now, the Cap is going to skyrocket upwards. Most guys won't take the TY approach to getting what they want. And absolutely no-one will sit out rather than sign the Franchise tag. Even if it is a sit out until the last second kind of thing.


I agree that a player would be foolish to sit out an entire year, rather than play on the tag, but how well did it turn out with Avril? He missed all of camp and had a very mediocre season. Now he's going into FA disgruntled that he was tagged in the first place, he still wants ridiculous money, and he has little to no trade value.

We could tag and trade Suh, but you're going to get a reduced value for him. Much lower than you would get for him now, and even lower than you would get for him in the final year of his rookie deal. Once you've decided to tag a player you've more or less assured that you're going to sign him long-term or he's going to walk.

It doesn't matter if the salary cap skyrockets up, if you're in poor position to take advantage of it and if you have too much invested in a small pool of players that make too much money you're going to be handicapped, period. If the cap does go up a ton, all it does is creates a bigger pool for teams to pay their players. Allocating too much to too few will still handicap a team. We need less stars and more starters.


January 31st, 2013, 4:06 pm
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Post Re: Lions place Titus Young on IR
It's a stance I've tried to voice for a long time. Another thing is if you don't think a greatly increased cap isn't going to get agents looking for new astronomical paydays for their players you are crazy. If Suh just has one more year similar to this past season stat wise he look for a contract even larger than what Haynesworth signed and he would likely get it. I don't know about you but I could only hope it were another team giving a DT a $100+ million dollar contract.


January 31st, 2013, 4:20 pm
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Post Re: Lions place Titus Young on IR
The lions should be listening to offers for Suh, but they should be listening to offers for everyone on the roster. Every player should be available at any given time, just don't let them go unless the compensation is right.

Suh shouldn't be moved for anything less than a 1st, if your taking anything less you should just wait and trade him on the tag or use him up for 3 more years and take the compensatory pick you would get when he walks. Suh still had the 2nd highest sack total for DTs this year, so he has enough value that he could start at least a mild bidding war on the franchise tag and if he's as greedy as Wjb makes him out to be then he wont care where he goes as long as they want to pay him. Even the Avril situation isn't as bad as it seems since he will probably sign a big enough contract to get a decent compensatory pick for the Lions.


January 31st, 2013, 6:14 pm
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Post Re: Lions place Titus Young on IR
rao wrote:
Even the Avril situation isn't as bad as it seems since he will probably sign a big enough contract to get a decent compensatory pick for the Lions.


I hope that's true. I have a horrible feeling that we're going to over pay the guy and sign him to a long-term deal.


January 31st, 2013, 6:30 pm
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Post Re: Lions place Titus Young on IR
wjb21ndtown wrote:
rao wrote:
Even the Avril situation isn't as bad as it seems since he will probably sign a big enough contract to get a decent compensatory pick for the Lions.


I hope that's true. I have a horrible feeling that we're going to over pay the guy and sign him to a long-term deal.


Let Avril go, draft Werner @ #5 to replace him. See what the young CBs the Lions drafted last year can do anything and re-sign Houston. That's what I would do to start.

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February 1st, 2013, 9:11 am
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Post Re: Lions place Titus Young on IR
wjb21ndtown wrote:
I wouldn't be happy with a 2nd round pick for Suh, but if we did get a 2nd round pick for him, isn't that better than nothing when his contract is up?

2 years of Suh vs 4 years of a second rounder.

Pros for the 2nd rounder - twice as many seasons, cheaper

Pros for Suh - known quantity, much more likely to be an effective player during the time on the roster

I think overall I'd take Suh.

For a 1st rounder, I'd consider it. You get 5 years then, and a higher chance of getting a player at or near Suh's level.


February 1st, 2013, 11:42 am
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Post Re: Lions place Titus Young on IR
LionsFan4Life wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
rao wrote:
Even the Avril situation isn't as bad as it seems since he will probably sign a big enough contract to get a decent compensatory pick for the Lions.


I hope that's true. I have a horrible feeling that we're going to over pay the guy and sign him to a long-term deal.


Let Avril go, draft Werner @ #5 to replace him. See what the young CBs the Lions drafted last year can do anything and re-sign Houston. That's what I would do to start.


I understand the plan, but again, both of our rookie CBs last year looked horrible, and neither has proved they can stay healthy for a 16 game season.

Also, what would you do about LT/RT? Start Reiff and bring back Gos?

If our "big improvement" this offseason is swapping Avril for Werner, the most we'll win is 6 games next year.


UK Lion wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
I wouldn't be happy with a 2nd round pick for Suh, but if we did get a 2nd round pick for him, isn't that better than nothing when his contract is up?

2 years of Suh vs 4 years of a second rounder.

Pros for the 2nd rounder - twice as many seasons, cheaper

Pros for Suh - known quantity, much more likely to be an effective player during the time on the roster

I think overall I'd take Suh.

For a 1st rounder, I'd consider it. You get 5 years then, and a higher chance of getting a player at or near Suh's level.


All fair and excellent points. I consider it somewhat of a toss up, but lean toward making the trade. My reasoning is four fold:
1) Suh's rush D;
2) The fact that he's a locker room cancer;
3) I believe we have two starting caliber DTs on this team right now; &
4) I believe this team needs more starters and fewer high priced stars.


February 1st, 2013, 12:08 pm
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Post Re: Lions place Titus Young on IR
Run D I'd place more on scheme and coaching.

Points 3 and 4 I agree with.

Point 2 - there are signs of this, no doubt, but not enough that I'd elevate it to a fact.

Point 2 is probably the main one for me. If it's true, and the FO should know either way, I'd be much more inclined to get rid. Tying up that big a % of the cap in a locker room cancer would be silly.

Does anyone know how much dead money we'd carry if we traded him? How much of his cap hit comes from past signing bonuses vs salary/future bonuses?

I also think that if you start shopping him, his value goes down a lot. The only way of doing it would be to be very subtle about it IMO.


February 1st, 2013, 12:16 pm
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