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 Off-Season Moves 
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
wjb21ndtown wrote:
rao wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
What's the conspiracy theory? That I didn't think Raiola would take a straight pay-cut, and that I didn't think Mayhew had the stones to ask him for one? That's a conspiracy theory?

You act as if I was unjustified in thinking we moved his salary down the road, but the fact of the matter is, Mayhew has shown time and time again that its his MO.

Admit I was wrong? Are you kidding me? You think that's difficult for me? I do it all the time. I have no problem admitting that I didn't think Raiola would take a straight pay-cut, or that Mayhew would ask him to take one. The details have yet to be released, so we'll see what the real deal is sometime next week, but I have no problem admitting that it wasn't what I thought would happen.

That said, IMO it says something about the quality of Raiola's play, that he was so paranoid that if we cut him he wouldn't get another starting job anywhere else, and it supports my contention that Raiola is complete garbage and should have been cut or traded years ago.


I agree that Raiola was never very good, but don't twist this into something more than it is or that it some how says you were right about him years ago. He is 34 years old and at that age very few players are interested in going to a new team or confident that they can take on a new system. His comments about being "a little uncomfortable" is the norm for a player that has been with the same team for more than 10 years.


He's never been good, and our OL has sucked since drafting him in 2002, regardless as to who we put next to him. I don't buy this "he used to be good, but now he's old" argument.


I never said he was ever good, but his comments don't prove he is worried about his physical ability to start in the league. He may not see many spots available where he feels he would get a fair shot to compete for the spot or that he just wouldn't play with any heart for a different team. I don't see Raiola being the kind of guy to lack confidence in himself, he a pretty big a-hole.


February 15th, 2013, 4:10 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
rao wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
rao wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
What's the conspiracy theory? That I didn't think Raiola would take a straight pay-cut, and that I didn't think Mayhew had the stones to ask him for one? That's a conspiracy theory?

You act as if I was unjustified in thinking we moved his salary down the road, but the fact of the matter is, Mayhew has shown time and time again that its his MO.

Admit I was wrong? Are you kidding me? You think that's difficult for me? I do it all the time. I have no problem admitting that I didn't think Raiola would take a straight pay-cut, or that Mayhew would ask him to take one. The details have yet to be released, so we'll see what the real deal is sometime next week, but I have no problem admitting that it wasn't what I thought would happen.

That said, IMO it says something about the quality of Raiola's play, that he was so paranoid that if we cut him he wouldn't get another starting job anywhere else, and it supports my contention that Raiola is complete garbage and should have been cut or traded years ago.


I agree that Raiola was never very good, but don't twist this into something more than it is or that it some how says you were right about him years ago. He is 34 years old and at that age very few players are interested in going to a new team or confident that they can take on a new system. His comments about being "a little uncomfortable" is the norm for a player that has been with the same team for more than 10 years.


He's never been good, and our OL has sucked since drafting him in 2002, regardless as to who we put next to him. I don't buy this "he used to be good, but now he's old" argument.


I never said he was ever good, but his comments don't prove he is worried about his physical ability to start in the league. He may not see many spots available where he feels he would get a fair shot to compete for the spot or that he just wouldn't play with any heart for a different team. I don't see Raiola being the kind of guy to lack confidence in himself, he a pretty big a-hole.


I'd say he was simply being realistic. Look at his buddy Olin Kreutz: Got released by The Bears, caught on with the Saints very quickly, but then went ahead and retired mid-season anyways.

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February 15th, 2013, 4:44 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
thelomasbrowns wrote:
rao wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
rao wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
What's the conspiracy theory? That I didn't think Raiola would take a straight pay-cut, and that I didn't think Mayhew had the stones to ask him for one? That's a conspiracy theory?

You act as if I was unjustified in thinking we moved his salary down the road, but the fact of the matter is, Mayhew has shown time and time again that its his MO.

Admit I was wrong? Are you kidding me? You think that's difficult for me? I do it all the time. I have no problem admitting that I didn't think Raiola would take a straight pay-cut, or that Mayhew would ask him to take one. The details have yet to be released, so we'll see what the real deal is sometime next week, but I have no problem admitting that it wasn't what I thought would happen.

That said, IMO it says something about the quality of Raiola's play, that he was so paranoid that if we cut him he wouldn't get another starting job anywhere else, and it supports my contention that Raiola is complete garbage and should have been cut or traded years ago.


I agree that Raiola was never very good, but don't twist this into something more than it is or that it some how says you were right about him years ago. He is 34 years old and at that age very few players are interested in going to a new team or confident that they can take on a new system. His comments about being "a little uncomfortable" is the norm for a player that has been with the same team for more than 10 years.


He's never been good, and our OL has sucked since drafting him in 2002, regardless as to who we put next to him. I don't buy this "he used to be good, but now he's old" argument.


I never said he was ever good, but his comments don't prove he is worried about his physical ability to start in the league. He may not see many spots available where he feels he would get a fair shot to compete for the spot or that he just wouldn't play with any heart for a different team. I don't see Raiola being the kind of guy to lack confidence in himself, he a pretty big a-hole.


I'd say he was simply being realistic. Look at his buddy Olin Kreutz: Got released by The Bears, caught on with the Saints very quickly, but then went ahead and retired mid-season anyways.


Don't forget Jeff Saturday, he lost his spot and retired. Both guys were much better than Raiola and still fell flat when they left their old team. I'm sure those two had a lot to do with Raiola feeling uncomfortable about going to a different team.


February 15th, 2013, 5:45 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
The grass isn't greener on the other side, it is just artificial.

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February 15th, 2013, 6:34 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
i really hope the FO dont expect him to start anymore. Raiola might be the worst starting C in the NFL. really can someone tell me who in the NFL is weaker at C? i think its disgusting how many coaching changes he's survived. we shouldve let him go. no one will ever look at a promising prospect in the draft and say "this guy could be the next dominick riaola". which how you should talk about 10+ year starters. that dickless anonymous gm was right in that we over value bad players

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February 16th, 2013, 3:44 am
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
I have no doubt I'll stir something up with this, but here goes anyway...

Raiola is a good center.

Feel free to roll your eyes all you want. He isn't great, but that does not mean he isn't good. He has been a team captain, he calls out blocking adjustments and is well regarded throughout the league as being a good center. Not great. Good.

I don't have the problem with Raiola that many seem to have. The same holds true for Backus. I stand firm in my belief that much of the problems with the offensive line that is laid at the feet of these two players has stemmed from the failure to draft quality right and left guards to play along side of them. Then you can add in the constant merry-go-round of offensive line coaches, offensive co-ordinators and head coaches, all with different schemes, methods and demands.

Raiola will help to control the LoS in pass blocking, not so much run blocking. This, along with his age, would allow him to catch on with another team, but not for the money he is going to get in Detroit. Just because he has taken a yearly salary reduction doesn't mean he isn't going to get most of the money he had originally signed to receive. While he may get less salary this year he probably will receive guaranteed bonuses for added years that will make up for it while lessening the salary cap hit.

Had the Lions spent as much time building the offensive and defensive lines over the last fourteen years as they have trying to get a good set of WR's, RB's and QB's we would not even be having this conversation. Raiola would have had the support he needed or would have been replaced long ago. Even so we would have someone ready to replace him right now and he probably would have been cut. For years we have passed on drafting quality guards and centers that can play either position and the offense has suffered for it. Defense wins championships, but controlling the Line of Scrimmage on both sides of the ball is what gets you there. When was the last time you saw the Lions control the LoS on offense?

Now, with that said, having Raiola come back is probably a good thing right now. The Lions missed an opportunity to clean house and start over with a new Front Office and new coaches. They're unlikely to resign most of their free agents and so they will need as much continuity as possible returning to OTA's and camp and Raiola is one of the leaders of this team whether you like it or not.

Once again, feel free to roll your eyes, vomit, whatever makes you feel better. Personally, I have taken to devoting myself to winning the lottery, one ticket at a time, so I can buy the team and hire people who are more interested in winning than the image of improving. It does me just as much good and it is more fun to fantasy about.


February 16th, 2013, 6:36 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
Jafo wrote:
I have no doubt I'll stir something up with this, but here goes anyway...

Raiola is a good center.

Feel free to roll your eyes all you want. He isn't great, but that does not mean he isn't good. He has been a team captain, he calls out blocking adjustments and is well regarded throughout the league as being a good center. Not great. Good.

I don't have the problem with Raiola that many seem to have. The same holds true for Backus. I stand firm in my belief that much of the problems with the offensive line that is laid at the feet of these two players has stemmed from the failure to draft quality right and left guards to play along side of them. Then you can add in the constant merry-go-round of offensive line coaches, offensive co-ordinators and head coaches, all with different schemes, methods and demands.

Raiola will help to control the LoS in pass blocking, not so much run blocking. This, along with his age, would allow him to catch on with another team, but not for the money he is going to get in Detroit. Just because he has taken a yearly salary reduction doesn't mean he isn't going to get most of the money he had originally signed to receive. While he may get less salary this year he probably will receive guaranteed bonuses for added years that will make up for it while lessening the salary cap hit.

Had the Lions spent as much time building the offensive and defensive lines over the last fourteen years as they have trying to get a good set of WR's, RB's and QB's we would not even be having this conversation. Raiola would have had the support he needed or would have been replaced long ago. Even so we would have someone ready to replace him right now and he probably would have been cut. For years we have passed on drafting quality guards and centers that can play either position and the offense has suffered for it. Defense wins championships, but controlling the Line of Scrimmage on both sides of the ball is what gets you there. When was the last time you saw the Lions control the LoS on offense?

Now, with that said, having Raiola come back is probably a good thing right now. The Lions missed an opportunity to clean house and start over with a new Front Office and new coaches. They're unlikely to resign most of their free agents and so they will need as much continuity as possible returning to OTA's and camp and Raiola is one of the leaders of this team whether you like it or not.

Once again, feel free to roll your eyes, vomit, whatever makes you feel better. Personally, I have taken to devoting myself to winning the lottery, one ticket at a time, so I can buy the team and hire people who are more interested in winning than the image of improving. It does me just as much good and it is more fun to fantasy about.


Jafo, your post defies history. It hasn't mattered who we put next to Raiola, he could never get the job done. We've had OGs that couldn't play next to Raiola come in here after having had success elsewhere, and we've had OGs leave here and have success. Kosier and Woody are two of them. No one has been able to make Raiola good, or even be able to cover his mistakes.

Last time I looked, and I really did look up every one of them, Raiola was the 3rd LIGHTEST OC in the league, and IMO his weight at 295 is over-stated. I've met the guy in person. His legs look like toothpicks, he doesn't look particularly strong, and say what you want about his "leadership" he comes across as a blowhard and he picks fights with fans. He's a certified ashole, and I'm sure his teammates see it as well.

He is flat out horrid, in every respect EXCEPT his ability to call out blocking assignments, but that's not something that we as fans can really gauge. We can hear that he does it well, but we certainly fail to pick up our fair share of blitzes. The guy is awful, period.


February 16th, 2013, 7:12 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
My opinion does not defy history.

To start off, we have not had a good guard playing next to either Backus or Raiola until Sims. Woody was good in NE but got fat and lazy here. He was a RG while we had no LG.

I will also once again point out the turmoil that has been the norm with offensive line coach changes, blocking scheme changes as well as changes in the entire offensive schemes. Not to mention that the Lions have played from behind in the vast majority of their games. Kind of hard to look all that good when you are unsure of what is happening next with the coaches or when the defense knows what you are going to do.

Yes, Raiola is a a-hole to fans, who are also a-holes to him and his teammates. No, buying a ticket does not give you license to call them a-holes or worse. Your/our opinion of him as fans is not necessarily shared by his teammates or the coaching staff. By all accounts I have heard the guy is a hard worker, does his job well and has his teammates backs.

Look, you don't like him, I get it. I think you are a bit too jaded when claiming the only reason he is still playing is because the Lions refuse to cut their losses and admit he sucks. He is the third lightest Center in the league. BFD. You don't last if you cannot do the job well enough. Trust me, these coaches don't want to get fired because of some crappy player.

Would I like to see the Lions get a better Center? Yes. I'd like the Lions to get better players everywhere.

You don't like Raiola. I don't like Delmas. I think Delmas is overrated and has been from day one. However, my problem isn't with Delmas, it is with Mayhew and Schwartz for drafting him. Just as it will be when/if Mayhew brings back one of 'his guys' and re-signs Delmas.

For that matter, my problem is with the Front Office and Schwartz. They should have been fired. We are looking at massive turnover in the roster already. This would have been the perfect opportunity to make a change. This team has been going backwards since the mid-point of the 2011 season. I see little reason for that to change much.


February 17th, 2013, 9:37 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
Jafo wrote:
I don't like Delmas. I think Delmas is overrated and has been from day one. However, my problem isn't with Delmas, it is with Mayhew and Schwartz for drafting him. Just as it will be when/if Mayhew brings back one of 'his guys' and re-signs Delmas.
.


Though I agree that Delmas is overrated, I dont think it was a bad thing drafting him. Hes far from a stud that the average Lions fan thinks he is. And the defense a lot of times is "well hes good but hes always hurt". If that truly is the case, then that says it right there, "Hes always hurt". I dont even think hes THAT great when he is healthy, but he does make the defense better. I hope they re-sign him, but for a low amount. Cant have a guy on a team that cant stay healthy. I dont care if hes Ed Reed, u cant get on the field why pay for him to be on the team.

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February 18th, 2013, 8:57 am
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
Jafo wrote:
My opinion does not defy history.

To start off, we have not had a good guard playing next to either Backus or Raiola until Sims. Woody was good in NE but got fat and lazy here. He was a RG while we had no LG.

I will also once again point out the turmoil that has been the norm with offensive line coach changes, blocking scheme changes as well as changes in the entire offensive schemes. Not to mention that the Lions have played from behind in the vast majority of their games. Kind of hard to look all that good when you are unsure of what is happening next with the coaches or when the defense knows what you are going to do.

Yes, Raiola is a a-hole to fans, who are also a-holes to him and his teammates. No, buying a ticket does not give you license to call them a-holes or worse. Your/our opinion of him as fans is not necessarily shared by his teammates or the coaching staff. By all accounts I have heard the guy is a hard worker, does his job well and has his teammates backs.

Look, you don't like him, I get it. I think you are a bit too jaded when claiming the only reason he is still playing is because the Lions refuse to cut their losses and admit he sucks. He is the third lightest Center in the league. BFD. You don't last if you cannot do the job well enough. Trust me, these coaches don't want to get fired because of some crappy player.

Would I like to see the Lions get a better Center? Yes. I'd like the Lions to get better players everywhere.

You don't like Raiola. I don't like Delmas. I think Delmas is overrated and has been from day one. However, my problem isn't with Delmas, it is with Mayhew and Schwartz for drafting him. Just as it will be when/if Mayhew brings back one of 'his guys' and re-signs Delmas.

For that matter, my problem is with the Front Office and Schwartz. They should have been fired. We are looking at massive turnover in the roster already. This would have been the perfect opportunity to make a change. This team has been going backwards since the mid-point of the 2011 season. I see little reason for that to change much.


Woody made the probowl in a Lions uniform, and had a great year. Woody was great before he was a Lion, and he was more than effective after he left here. The same is true for Kyle Kosier. Kosier was effective both before and after he was a Lion. Why do these guys succeed elsewhere, but can't succeed here next to Raiola?

The fact that Raiola is the 3rd lightest OC in the league wouldn't say much, IF he wasn't weak and didn't suck. He and the two OCs lighter than he is are all no good. I outlined it in another post on here. Virutally every team with an OC under 300lbs is looking to replace their OC.

Further, buying a ticket to a Lions game DOES give you the right to boo, complain, and call them a-holes or worse, when they're playing like a-holes or worse. There were 43 players on the sidelines, all getting booed. Raiola was the only one that took it upon himself to try to silence 80,000 people with his middle finger. Guess what? It didn't work.

The guy is a piece of garbage, flat out. He's no good for this team and he and Backus are the two constants on an OL that has been putrid for 10 + years. He is the consummate "anchor" or "leader" for the middle of the OL that hasn't been able to generate ANY push since he got here. Say what you want about him, it's only "comfort," blindness by our GMs, and glaring other needs that have allowed him to remain in a Lions uniform.


February 18th, 2013, 12:50 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
Who were the centers that are lighter than him?

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February 18th, 2013, 1:38 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
Footsoldier32 wrote:
Who were the centers that are lighter than him?


Ryan Lilja of KC (290)
and Jeff Saturday of GB (285)

And again, IMO Raiola's weight at 295 is over stated. He was 286 for most of his career. He allegedly put on 10lbs in the last two years, and I contend that it's not muscle/good weight.


February 18th, 2013, 1:51 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
Wow, I didn't know that Jeff Saturday was THAT light. I would have guessed 300ish pounds.

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February 18th, 2013, 4:46 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
Footsoldier32 wrote:
Wow, I didn't know that Jeff Saturday was THAT light. I would have guessed 300ish pounds.


He's been light his entire career. Like Raiola, for the last couple of years they've added some weight to his profile (295.. he was 285 for a lot of his career with the Colts), but again, even if it's honest, it's not good weight. Did he retire, or is he just a FA? He's not listed on the GB depth chart anymore.

Saturday has always been what everyone said Raiola was, good technician, good pass blocker, good reads, etc., but Saturday uses his hands much, much better than Raiola, and overall Saturday has been a much better player.


February 18th, 2013, 4:50 pm
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Post Re: Off-Season Moves
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Footsoldier32 wrote:
Wow, I didn't know that Jeff Saturday was THAT light. I would have guessed 300ish pounds.


He's been light his entire career. Like Raiola, for the last couple of years they've added some weight to his profile (295.. he was 285 for a lot of his career with the Colts), but again, even if it's honest, it's not good weight. Did he retire, or is he just a FA? He's not listed on the GB depth chart anymore.

Saturday has always been what everyone said Raiola was, good technician, good pass blocker, good reads, etc., but Saturday uses his hands much, much better than Raiola, and overall Saturday has been a much better player.


Saturday retired.

I think all the evidence shows what WJB is saying about Raiola being a bad player.

Saturday also had the benefit of Peyton Manning making calls at the line and fast release to help him to go along with his better hands and footwork. I think Saturday probably wouldn't be as highly regarded if he had played in a more conventional offense that used a normal running attack. He was still much better skilled than Raiola, but the Colts never got good push in the run game either. Raiola's size is a liability with how big DTs are today and a lot of them move better than Raiola to boot.


February 18th, 2013, 6:01 pm
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