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 Cliff Avril may want Mario Williams type money 
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Post Re: Cliff Avril may want Mario Williams type money
wjb21ndtown wrote:
njroar wrote:
Tagging someone also requires that you have the cap available to tag him. And tag and trade only works if he signs the tag. He could refuse to sign which would eliminate all trade attempts.


You don't have to be under that cap until a certain date in the offseason, and I believe its after the draft.


You have to be under the cap by March 1st which is the start of the new league year.


February 19th, 2013, 1:38 pm
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Post Re: Cliff Avril may want Mario Williams type money
BillySims wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
njroar wrote:
Tagging someone also requires that you have the cap available to tag him. And tag and trade only works if he signs the tag. He could refuse to sign which would eliminate all trade attempts.


You don't have to be under that cap until a certain date in the offseason, and I believe its after the draft.


You have to be under the cap by March 1st which is the start of the new league year.


"Four teams still have to get under the salary cap by March 13"... According to ESPN. Still, that would have given us a month to try to trade Avril. Why not do it? Further, you don't have to "fit your rookies" under the cap until an even later date. All we have to clear is a few more million to be able to FT Avril another month or two. Again, why not do it?

The FT is a tool for NFL GMs, why piss it away?


February 19th, 2013, 3:19 pm
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Post Re: Cliff Avril may want Mario Williams type money
wjb21ndtown wrote:
BillySims wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
njroar wrote:
Tagging someone also requires that you have the cap available to tag him. And tag and trade only works if he signs the tag. He could refuse to sign which would eliminate all trade attempts.


You don't have to be under that cap until a certain date in the offseason, and I believe its after the draft.


You have to be under the cap by March 1st which is the start of the new league year.


"Four teams still have to get under the salary cap by March 13"... According to ESPN. Still, that would have given us a month to try to trade Avril. Why not do it? Further, you don't have to "fit your rookies" under the cap until an even later date. All we have to clear is a few more million to be able to FT Avril another month or two. Again, why not do it?

The FT is a tool for NFL GMs, why piss it away?


March 12th is the start of the new league year. Teams have to be under the cap by 4pm 3/12 to avoid violating the cap. Every thing starts on that day, so if they tag Avril they will take up their available cap space for the first day of free agency.

I'm going to point out again that there is no point in trying to trade Avril if the likely compensation is a 4th or later pick. The Lions will get a better or equal comp pick just letting him walk if he signs a top level contract.

Edited to add they can't trade Avril before 3/12.


February 19th, 2013, 3:48 pm
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Post Re: Cliff Avril may want Mario Williams type money
But if we do free up the money to accommodate his salary, we can keep him for a month up until the draft. Call me crazy, but I'd rather have a 4th this year than a 3rd next year. I really think we should be able to get a 2nd or 3rd for him this year, but in any event, even if it's a 4th, we need help now, and I would rather have a 4th round 2013 pick with a year of NFL experience under his belt starting for us, than a 3rd round rookie.

Either way, this whole cluster phuck is Mayhew's fault. He should have known what Avril's demands were prior to the 2012 draft, and dealt him then.


February 19th, 2013, 4:33 pm
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Post Re: Cliff Avril may want Mario Williams type money
wjb21ndtown wrote:
But if we do free up the money to accommodate his salary, we can keep him for a month up until the draft. Call me crazy, but I'd rather have a 4th this year than a 3rd next year. I really think we should be able to get a 2nd or 3rd for him this year, but in any event, even if it's a 4th, we need help now, and I would rather have a 4th round 2013 pick with a year of NFL experience under his belt starting for us, than a 3rd round rookie.

Either way, this whole cluster phuck is Mayhew's fault. He should have known what Avril's demands were prior to the 2012 draft, and dealt him then.


I personally don't think there is much to do with him now. There are a healthy amount of DEs in FA and a ton in the draft, IMO Avril's value as a trade commodity is low. I also never thought they could get more than a third for him last year, it just wouldn't be smart for a team to give up a large asset like a 2nd round pick along with having to pay Avril so much money. He is not looked at as a top guy, he's in that fringe level between a top and mid-level guy. I would have been happy with a 3rd last season, but you still run into the problem they have no replacement.


February 19th, 2013, 4:53 pm
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Post Re: Cliff Avril may want Mario Williams type money
wjb21ndtown wrote:
BillySims wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
njroar wrote:
Tagging someone also requires that you have the cap available to tag him. And tag and trade only works if he signs the tag. He could refuse to sign which would eliminate all trade attempts.


You don't have to be under that cap until a certain date in the offseason, and I believe its after the draft.


You have to be under the cap by March 1st which is the start of the new league year.


"Four teams still have to get under the salary cap by March 13"... According to ESPN. Still, that would have given us a month to try to trade Avril. Why not do it? Further, you don't have to "fit your rookies" under the cap until an even later date. All we have to clear is a few more million to be able to FT Avril another month or two. Again, why not do it?

The FT is a tool for NFL GMs, why piss it away?


Who says we won't? Mayhew said he does not foresee using the franchise tag. That statement does not in any way mean that he absolutely won't use it.


February 19th, 2013, 6:15 pm
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Post Re: Cliff Avril may want Mario Williams type money
BillySims wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
BillySims wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
njroar wrote:
Tagging someone also requires that you have the cap available to tag him. And tag and trade only works if he signs the tag. He could refuse to sign which would eliminate all trade attempts.


You don't have to be under that cap until a certain date in the offseason, and I believe its after the draft.


You have to be under the cap by March 1st which is the start of the new league year.


"Four teams still have to get under the salary cap by March 13"... According to ESPN. Still, that would have given us a month to try to trade Avril. Why not do it? Further, you don't have to "fit your rookies" under the cap until an even later date. All we have to clear is a few more million to be able to FT Avril another month or two. Again, why not do it?

The FT is a tool for NFL GMs, why piss it away?


Who says we won't? Mayhew said he does not foresee using the franchise tag. That statement does not in any way mean that he absolutely won't use it.



I believe he already came out and said affirmatively that he won't be using the tag on anyone, and he furthered that affirmation by stating to the media the first day that the tag was eligible to be placed on a player "don't expect anything from Allen Park."


February 19th, 2013, 6:18 pm
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Post Re: Cliff Avril may want Mario Williams type money
wjb21ndtown wrote:
BillySims wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
BillySims wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
njroar wrote:
Tagging someone also requires that you have the cap available to tag him. And tag and trade only works if he signs the tag. He could refuse to sign which would eliminate all trade attempts.


You don't have to be under that cap until a certain date in the offseason, and I believe its after the draft.


You have to be under the cap by March 1st which is the start of the new league year.


"Four teams still have to get under the salary cap by March 13"... According to ESPN. Still, that would have given us a month to try to trade Avril. Why not do it? Further, you don't have to "fit your rookies" under the cap until an even later date. All we have to clear is a few more million to be able to FT Avril another month or two. Again, why not do it?

The FT is a tool for NFL GMs, why piss it away?


Who says we won't? Mayhew said he does not foresee using the franchise tag. That statement does not in any way mean that he absolutely won't use it.



I believe he already came out and said affirmatively that he won't be using the tag on anyone, and he furthered that affirmation by stating to the media the first day that the tag was eligible to be placed on a player "don't expect anything from Allen Park."


He said he don't expect to use it. That does not mean he will not use it.


February 19th, 2013, 6:22 pm
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Post Re: Cliff Avril may want Mario Williams type money
wjb21ndtown wrote:
BillySims wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
njroar wrote:
Tagging someone also requires that you have the cap available to tag him. And tag and trade only works if he signs the tag. He could refuse to sign which would eliminate all trade attempts.


You don't have to be under that cap until a certain date in the offseason, and I believe its after the draft.


You have to be under the cap by March 1st which is the start of the new league year.


"Four teams still have to get under the salary cap by March 13"... According to ESPN. Still, that would have given us a month to try to trade Avril. Why not do it? Further, you don't have to "fit your rookies" under the cap until an even later date. All we have to clear is a few more million to be able to FT Avril another month or two. Again, why not do it?

The FT is a tool for NFL GMs, why piss it away?



I thought you couldnt do trades after the trade deadline untill the next (off)season starts again.

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February 19th, 2013, 6:37 pm
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Post Re: Cliff Avril may want Mario Williams type money
regularjoe12 wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
BillySims wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
njroar wrote:
Tagging someone also requires that you have the cap available to tag him. And tag and trade only works if he signs the tag. He could refuse to sign which would eliminate all trade attempts.


You don't have to be under that cap until a certain date in the offseason, and I believe its after the draft.


You have to be under the cap by March 1st which is the start of the new league year.


"Four teams still have to get under the salary cap by March 13"... According to ESPN. Still, that would have given us a month to try to trade Avril. Why not do it? Further, you don't have to "fit your rookies" under the cap until an even later date. All we have to clear is a few more million to be able to FT Avril another month or two. Again, why not do it?

The FT is a tool for NFL GMs, why piss it away?



I thought you couldnt do trades after the trade deadline untill the next (off)season starts again.


I believe you can negotiate or come to terms with another team, but the trade can't be executed until the start of the "season" which technically starts in the offseason. That said, I honestly have no clue if the season "starts" March 12th, 13th, or the 1st. I don't know if there is any over-lap where the "season" has started but you don't have to be under the cap yet.

That said, IMO it doesn't really matter. I think we can create the room for Avril to keep him prior to the draft. After the draft it's a non-issue. If we can't get a pick for him we should remove the tag and let him walk.


February 19th, 2013, 6:51 pm
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Post Re: Cliff Avril may want Mario Williams type money
wjb21ndtown wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
BillySims wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
njroar wrote:
Tagging someone also requires that you have the cap available to tag him. And tag and trade only works if he signs the tag. He could refuse to sign which would eliminate all trade attempts.


You don't have to be under that cap until a certain date in the offseason, and I believe its after the draft.


You have to be under the cap by March 1st which is the start of the new league year.


"Four teams still have to get under the salary cap by March 13"... According to ESPN. Still, that would have given us a month to try to trade Avril. Why not do it? Further, you don't have to "fit your rookies" under the cap until an even later date. All we have to clear is a few more million to be able to FT Avril another month or two. Again, why not do it?

The FT is a tool for NFL GMs, why piss it away?



I thought you couldnt do trades after the trade deadline untill the next (off)season starts again.


I believe you can negotiate or come to terms with another team, but the trade can't be executed until the start of the "season" which technically starts in the offseason. That said, I honestly have no clue if the season "starts" March 12th, 13th, or the 1st. I don't know if there is any over-lap where the "season" has started but you don't have to be under the cap yet.

That said, IMO it doesn't really matter. I think we can create the room for Avril to keep him prior to the draft. After the draft it's a non-issue. If we can't get a pick for him we should remove the tag and let him walk.


Isnt that exactly how we got into trouble last year?

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February 19th, 2013, 7:01 pm
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Post Re: Cliff Avril may want Mario Williams type money
regularjoe12 wrote:
Isnt that exactly how we got into trouble last year?


No, what happened last year was... We DIDN'T find out prior to the draft what Avril's contract demands were (a Mayhew managerial blunder, and a BAD ONE). We (Mayhew) THOUGHT that he was going to offer Cliff between $6.5-$8.5 per year and given that it was a sizable pay increase he THOUGHT that Avril would jump on it (he didn't). Then we signed Avril to the FT, and failed to trade him. We actually paid Avril the FT salary, again, another blunder. That money could have and should have been used elsewhere.

Our offseason last year should have been enough to get Mayhew fired. He handcuffed this team for at least two seasons. Three years of sub-par football are now on Mayhew's shoulders.


February 19th, 2013, 7:20 pm
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Post Re: Cliff Avril may want Mario Williams type money
Mayhew has a good feeling what Avril wanted but thought he didn't want to be tagged so badly that he would take that lesser contract. Mayhew should have tagged him and told him and his agent to find a team that would give him what he wanted and give up at the least a 3rd rounder. If there were no takers he should have just let him go and took the 3rd rounder this year as compensation. Now he has zero trade value in my mind as other teams no the Lions won't pay him the franchise tag price this year. By not retaining Avril last year by either letting him walk or trading him they could've pushed some of Stafford's or Johnson's money this year up to 2012. Imagine pushing $10 million of Stafford's money this season up last year and extending him this year and how much more flexible things would be. Right now they would have at least $10 million more and only have $30 million guaranteed that they have to work into a new contract. The failure to do anything with Avril last year and being content with Tulloch at MLB were both failures in my opinion. Not to get off topic but I have to say again Tulloch is nice but isn't a MLB that is going to cement a championship defense.


February 19th, 2013, 8:21 pm
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Post Re: Cliff Avril may want Mario Williams type money
sweetd20 wrote:
Mayhew has a good feeling what Avril wanted but thought he didn't want to be tagged so badly that he would take that lesser contract. Mayhew should have tagged him and told him and his agent to find a team that would give him what he wanted and give up at the least a 3rd rounder. If there were no takers he should have just let him go and took the 3rd rounder this year as compensation. Now he has zero trade value in my mind as other teams no the Lions won't pay him the franchise tag price this year. By not retaining Avril last year by either letting him walk or trading him they could've pushed some of Stafford's or Johnson's money this year up to 2012. Imagine pushing $10 million of Stafford's money this season up last year and extending him this year and how much more flexible things would be. Right now they would have at least $10 million more and only have $30 million guaranteed that they have to work into a new contract. The failure to do anything with Avril last year and being content with Tulloch at MLB were both failures in my opinion. Not to get off topic but I have to say again Tulloch is nice but isn't a MLB that is going to cement a championship defense.


I don't necessarily agree with your thoughts on Mayhew v Avril. Remember, Mayhew told Avril prior to the draft that he was "going to get paid" and it was like a "we got you covered, wink, wink, nudge, nudge..." sort of thing, and Avril was miffed that we offered him a contract so small. I personally give Mayhew the benefit of the doubt by stating that Avril caught Mayhew off guard, anything more than that is even WORSE IMO. There's no way that we should have paid Avril what we paid him to play last year, and I agree completely about moving some of Stafford's salary and guaranteed money into 2012 to free up future money. That's exactly what I said we should have done AFTER Avril handcuffed us.

Last offseason was a complete catastrophe.


February 19th, 2013, 8:27 pm
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Post Re: Cliff Avril may want Mario Williams type money
I'll put this here so we can sort out the league year dates.
http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-2/Important-dates-for-the-2013-NFL-season/1823424a-5de3-480a-a7ac-547f7c2bcae3

That is from the Bills official NFL site and I have seen similar things on other sites. It shows dates for the 2013 league year. With these being the most relevant to this situation.

March 9-11 -- Clubs are permitted to enter into contract negotiations with certified agents of players who will be Unrestricted Free Agents at the end of the current League Year.

March 12 -- Prior to 4:00 p.m., New York time, clubs must exercise options for 2013 on all players who have option clauses in their 2012 contracts.

March 12 -- Prior to 4:00 p.m., New York time, clubs must submit Qualifying Offers to their Restricted Free Agents with expiring contracts and to whom they desire to retain a Right of First Refusal/Compensation.

March 12 -- Prior to 4:00 p.m., New York time, clubs must submit a minimum salary offer to retain exclusive negotiating rights to their players with expiring 2012 contracts and who have fewer than three seasons of free agency credit.

March 12 -- All 2012 player contracts will expire at 4:00 p.m., New York time.

March 12 -- Top-51 Begins. All clubs must be under the Salary Cap prior to 4:00 p.m., New York time.

March 12 -- The 2013 League Year and Free Agency period begin at 4:00 p.m., New York time.

March 12 -- Trading period begins at 4:00 p.m., New York time, for 2013 after expiration of all 2012 contracts.

I think the confusion on the date being 12 or 13 is because it officially starts at 4:00 pm on the 12th, so nothing officially happens until the next day when the league gets a chance to ok any moves.


February 19th, 2013, 9:39 pm
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