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 Goodbye Cliff. 
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Post Re: Goodbye Cliff.
wjb21ndtown wrote:
I get that, but his failure to correct even the most glaring problems/issues (no #2 Cb, no #2 Wr, no experience at Rb, keeping Peterman at OG were all issues that were severely lacking in 2012 when we made our playoff run. To me, it was like knowing we weren't good enough in 2012, and keeping things the same anyhow. We didn't get better at ANY position going from 2012 to 2013, even with a first round draft pick! That's pretty remarkable!

If we would have "kept the same spirit" of a team, or "held together the nucleus" or something of that nature, I could understand. To hold together a team that was obviously not good enough seems... well... Stoopid...


x2. I know myself and others all commented at the lack of Moves last offseason. We (some) applauded the OL pick in rd 1, but then saw that player not have a big impact. We relied on a 3rd rd corner to start, but couldnt maximize the value of our rd 1 OL?

Its like we made the playoffs, the FO/Coaches got too many pats on the back, thought they had made it, and decided it was ok to just coast. What if sh!t handnt fallen apart last season and we won the close games, and we even made the playoffs with another 10w season. How would that have made the team any better than the 2011 team? How could we move forward, without making any improvements? Not replacing any of the barely functional pieces.


March 15th, 2013, 9:00 pm
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Post Re: Goodbye Cliff.
Just a tidbit on how lucky(?) the Lions were that Avril played out his franchise tag, from ESPN Nation Blogger Kevin Seifert:

Quote:
PHOENIX -- What is the old saying? Sometimes, the best deals are the ones you don't make.

Last year around this time, the Detroit Lions offered defensive end Cliff Avril a three-year contract worth $30 million in lieu of making him their franchise player. Avril declined and played out the season with a $10.6 million salary and salary-cap number.

It's impossible to know the exact structure of the Lions' offer, but it's safe to assume Avril would have had a lower cap number in 2012 and a significantly higher one for this season. So in the end, his unchallenged free-agent departure this month allowed the Lions to use the cap space for at least two and maybe three other players. And as we'll note, it also provided a startling revelation of Avril's true value on the market.

Upon closer inspection of the numbers, Avril's two-year contract with the Seattle Seahawks could be viewed as a one-year, $6 million deal. (That total includes a $4.5 million signing bonus and a $1.5 million base salary.) The second year is guaranteed only for injury, meaning the Seahawks could release him before the fifth day of the 2014 waiver period and not owe him additional money, as long as he is not injured.

Avril will count $3.75 million against the Seahawks' salary cap this season, and Lions general manager Martin Mayhew told local reporters at the NFL owners meeting that "it probably would have cost us two players to bring him back." That's not an exaggeration when you realize that the 2013 salary cap numbers for running back Reggie Bush ($2 million) and defensive lineman Jason Jones ($1.83 million) add up to a total of $3.83 million.

This isn't to render a judgment on whether Avril made a good decision to turn down the Lions' offer. We like to use salary-cap numbers and financial figures to tell bigger stories, and the lesson here is simple. The Lions have some work ahead of them in replacing Avril on the field, but from a long-term perspective, they were fortunate he turned down last year's offer.


If Avril doesn't make the Seahawk's 2014 roster, he's cost himself $14 million, and reports were the Lions were going to guarantee $20 million of the contract he turned down last summer. Ouch.

Of course, Avril might restructure the deal in 2014 to lower the cap hit and keep a roster spot, but still...

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March 18th, 2013, 11:42 pm
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Post Re: Goodbye Cliff.
Everyone knew that Cliff cost himself money last season. He thought he would get 10+ sacks and prove his $10+ M salary, and it didn't happen. Now has to pay for it. What's your point?


March 19th, 2013, 11:58 am
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Post Re: Goodbye Cliff.
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Everyone knew that Cliff cost himself money last season. He thought he would get 10+ sacks and prove his $10+ M salary, and it didn't happen. Now has to pay for it. What's your point?


That the gamble went the Lions way? That's what I took from it.

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March 19th, 2013, 12:07 pm
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Post Re: Goodbye Cliff.
LionsFan4Life wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Everyone knew that Cliff cost himself money last season. He thought he would get 10+ sacks and prove his $10+ M salary, and it didn't happen. Now has to pay for it. What's your point?


That the gamble went the Lions way? That's what I took from it.


Well... Depends how you look at it... You could say the Lions got "lucky" that Cliff didn't sign the deal (a deal he NEVER should have been offered, btw)... Or you could say the Lions got screwed over-paying Cliff for one session, going 4-12 and losing him for absolutely nothing...


March 19th, 2013, 12:09 pm
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Post Re: Goodbye Cliff.
I see your point.. I for one though is happy he didn't take it and even though the Lions didn't get anything for him... I'd rather have that, then his grossly over paid contract IF he had signed it last year.

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March 19th, 2013, 12:44 pm
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Post Re: Goodbye Cliff.
wjb21ndtown wrote:
LionsFan4Life wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Everyone knew that Cliff cost himself money last season. He thought he would get 10+ sacks and prove his $10+ M salary, and it didn't happen. Now has to pay for it. What's your point?


That the gamble went the Lions way? That's what I took from it.


Well... Depends how you look at it... You could say the Lions got "lucky" that Cliff didn't sign the deal (a deal he NEVER should have been offered, btw)... Or you could say the Lions got screwed over-paying Cliff for one session, going 4-12 and losing him for absolutely nothing...


How did they get screwed over paying him for one season? Mayhew said he was only looking to resign guys last season, so Avril didn't stop them from doing anything and he was their best DE last year. Avril has never had good trade value, he has only had one notable season and the Lions had to franchise him dropping his value. The best value he may have ever held is his original round and they have got 3 seasons of 3rd rd or better production out of him.


March 19th, 2013, 12:45 pm
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Post Re: Goodbye Cliff.
rao wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
LionsFan4Life wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Everyone knew that Cliff cost himself money last season. He thought he would get 10+ sacks and prove his $10+ M salary, and it didn't happen. Now has to pay for it. What's your point?


That the gamble went the Lions way? That's what I took from it.


Well... Depends how you look at it... You could say the Lions got "lucky" that Cliff didn't sign the deal (a deal he NEVER should have been offered, btw)... Or you could say the Lions got screwed over-paying Cliff for one session, going 4-12 and losing him for absolutely nothing...


How did they get screwed over paying him for one season? Mayhew said he was only looking to resign guys last season, so Avril didn't stop them from doing anything and he was their best DE last year. Avril has never had good trade value, he has only had one notable season and the Lions had to franchise him dropping his value. The best value he may have ever held is his original round and they have got 3 seasons of 3rd rd or better production out of him.


Over-paying a guy is still over-paying a guy. What's worse is, giving him his FT deal caused Mayhew to pass on drafting a 2012 DE. On top of that, we could have signed 3-4 quality FAs for what we paid Avril for his mediocre play.


March 19th, 2013, 12:54 pm
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Post Re: Goodbye Cliff.
wjb21ndtown wrote:
rao wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
LionsFan4Life wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Everyone knew that Cliff cost himself money last season. He thought he would get 10+ sacks and prove his $10+ M salary, and it didn't happen. Now has to pay for it. What's your point?


That the gamble went the Lions way? That's what I took from it.


Well... Depends how you look at it... You could say the Lions got "lucky" that Cliff didn't sign the deal (a deal he NEVER should have been offered, btw)... Or you could say the Lions got screwed over-paying Cliff for one session, going 4-12 and losing him for absolutely nothing...


How did they get screwed over paying him for one season? Mayhew said he was only looking to resign guys last season, so Avril didn't stop them from doing anything and he was their best DE last year. Avril has never had good trade value, he has only had one notable season and the Lions had to franchise him dropping his value. The best value he may have ever held is his original round and they have got 3 seasons of 3rd rd or better production out of him.


Over-paying a guy is still over-paying a guy. What's worse is, giving him his FT deal caused Mayhew to pass on drafting a 2012 DE. On top of that, we could have signed 3-4 quality FAs for what we paid Avril for his mediocre play.


Mayhew did draft a DE in 2012, his name is Ronnell Lewis. He's probably a bust like most of their post-1st round picks, but Mayhew still drafted one. They didn't over-pay for Avril last year, the DE market was over-inflated because of the Mario Williams deal that year and the Charles Johnson contract from the year before.


March 19th, 2013, 1:06 pm
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Post Re: Goodbye Cliff.
rao wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
rao wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
LionsFan4Life wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Everyone knew that Cliff cost himself money last season. He thought he would get 10+ sacks and prove his $10+ M salary, and it didn't happen. Now has to pay for it. What's your point?


That the gamble went the Lions way? That's what I took from it.


Well... Depends how you look at it... You could say the Lions got "lucky" that Cliff didn't sign the deal (a deal he NEVER should have been offered, btw)... Or you could say the Lions got screwed over-paying Cliff for one session, going 4-12 and losing him for absolutely nothing...


How did they get screwed over paying him for one season? Mayhew said he was only looking to resign guys last season, so Avril didn't stop them from doing anything and he was their best DE last year. Avril has never had good trade value, he has only had one notable season and the Lions had to franchise him dropping his value. The best value he may have ever held is his original round and they have got 3 seasons of 3rd rd or better production out of him.


Over-paying a guy is still over-paying a guy. What's worse is, giving him his FT deal caused Mayhew to pass on drafting a 2012 DE. On top of that, we could have signed 3-4 quality FAs for what we paid Avril for his mediocre play.


Mayhew did draft a DE in 2012, his name is Ronnell Lewis. He's probably a bust like most of their post-1st round picks, but Mayhew still drafted one. They didn't over-pay for Avril last year, the DE market was over-inflated because of the Mario Williams deal that year and the Charles Johnson contract from the year before.


I don't think you can say that we didn't over-pay just because the market was inflated. Most posters on here agreed that Avril was worth $6.5-8.5... You can go back and look, those were my numbers and M2s numbers.

If the market is "inflated" most good teams shy away from the market.

I don't consider Ronnell Lewis a legitimate attempt at replacing Avril, maybe I'm wrong....


March 19th, 2013, 1:12 pm
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Post Re: Goodbye Cliff.
What wjb is saying has merit. The Lions offer to Avril last season was more than what they should have made to him. They were lucky he turned them down, because he is definitely not a $10M per season DE, and the market this season proved that. But wjb is correct in saying they still overpaid him last season. I believe they tagged him in an effort to get him signed to a long term deal, not because they felt he was a deal at $10.6M for the season. That was the Lions gamble. Avril's gamble was turning down the offer he got on the notion he would produce sufficient numbers to warrant an 8 figure per season, multi-year deal in this free agency period. He lost, big time.

His actions last season did prevent the Lions from getting additional free agents they may have been interested in, and as a result definitely impacted their draft strategy. I think Reiff would have been the pick in round one regardless, but in round two the Lions may have gone with Vinny Curry over Ryan Broyles to replace Avril. At that point getting a DE would have been more important than a second or third WR. Of course, that would have depended on who we signed in FA. As much as Mayhew has stated that passing on Avril this year brought us two or three guys, it is just as true to say that last season we should have passed on tagging Avril to get two or three more guys.

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March 19th, 2013, 1:31 pm
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Post Re: Goodbye Cliff.
It's not even relevant at this point. Aril had comparisons of the Charles Johnson deal and other absurd deals for DEs that were recent. That $10M a year last year was the going rate, like it or not. Now, with such a crappy market, $10M is way too much. Just like every few years with houses. The market fluctuates. Some years teams get deals, some years the players get deals.

Yes, the lions lucked out, but they weren't idiots last year. I didn't like the offer either and I'm glad he rejected them.

Gotta love the Monday morning QBs around here.

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March 19th, 2013, 2:46 pm
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Post Re: Goodbye Cliff.
conversion02 wrote:
It's not even relevant at this point. Aril had comparisons of the Charles Johnson deal and other absurd deals for DEs that were recent. That $10M a year last year was the going rate, like it or not. Now, with such a crappy market, $10M is way too much. Just like every few years with houses. The market fluctuates. Some years teams get deals, some years the players get deals.

Yes, the lions lucked out, but they weren't idiots last year. I didn't like the offer either and I'm glad he rejected them.

Gotta love the Monday morning QBs around here.


You can't call M2 and I "Monday morning Qbs" when both of us said that his value is $6.5 to $8.5 LAST YEAR, when the "market was bad."

This isn't a "some teams get lucky" proposition. Good teams go where the market is weak and get great talent cheap, and have coaches that are smart enough to take advantage of that talent. We could have drafted a starting caliber DE when the DE market was "strong" and got good value. Instead we took a #3 WR, for whatever reason... Poor management...


March 19th, 2013, 2:54 pm
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Post Re: Goodbye Cliff.
wjb21ndtown wrote:
conversion02 wrote:
It's not even relevant at this point. Aril had comparisons of the Charles Johnson deal and other absurd deals for DEs that were recent. That $10M a year last year was the going rate, like it or not. Now, with such a crappy market, $10M is way too much. Just like every few years with houses. The market fluctuates. Some years teams get deals, some years the players get deals.

Yes, the lions lucked out, but they weren't idiots last year. I didn't like the offer either and I'm glad he rejected them.

Gotta love the Monday morning QBs around here.


You can't call M2 and I "Monday morning Qbs" when both of us said that his value is $6.5 to $8.5 LAST YEAR, when the "market was bad."

This isn't a "some teams get lucky" proposition. Good teams go where the market is weak and get great talent cheap, and have coaches that are smart enough to take advantage of that talent. We could have drafted a starting caliber DE when the DE market was "strong" and got good value. Instead we took a #3 WR, for whatever reason... Poor management...


It was a player's market last year and the Lions paid the going rate that year, that's not overpaying. If they paid it this year it would be, but they were lucky that Avril over valued himself. Good or bad move it's still not over-paying.

There was only two 2nd round DEs taken in 2012 and both were unable to do anything on teams with needs at DE. Vinny Curry even played in the wide-9 for Jim Washburn. Right now Broyles has contributed above or at least equal to the other 2 guys.


March 19th, 2013, 3:37 pm
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Post Re: Goodbye Cliff.
The market is strong for DE depth this year too, are you saying the market is weak with a strong draft class?

I didn't say I liked the $10M deal last year, I said it was fair given the market, maybe a little high. I believe I said $9M per would have been right in the wheelhouse. Looking at the recent deals like the ridiculous deal Charles Johnson got, Avrils market was easily inflated by $1-2M per year because of the recent atrocities. I think everyone thought his play would continue to progress upon last year (though many of us thought he was a product of the system and talent around him). Fortunately, his play regressed and he was sent packing.

I also vividly remember you saying you thought $8M was a good number and wouldn't be upset with, at most $8.5M. Not sure why you're changing your mind now and saying $6.5M. I think everyone would have taken him at $6.5M last year, but get real, it wasn't in the realm of possibility. I'd also like CJ to be at $10M a year too.

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March 19th, 2013, 3:39 pm
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