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 CJ restructured also. 
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Post Re: CJ restructured also.
rao wrote:
regularjoe12 explained it pretty well. The only way I see this stuff becoming moot is if they win a Super Bowl. A SB gets them enough good will to survive a rebuild, but anything else will look like they gave up.


If we make the playoffs and play solid football again with Bently as a #2 CB, Lewis at DE, Whitehead (or anyone) playing cheap SSLB, Nagy/Fox surviving a whole season, Reiff playing quality LT and Broyles somehow becomes a #2 WR, Mayhew's "rebuild"/team build was successful.

If that happens and we're playing quality football, I don't even care if we barely MISS the playoffs (8-8 with an almost or couple close calls, or 9-7 and we get the short end of the stick), Mayhew did a good job and deserves his paycheck.

If the 2nd round and later picks and FAs that he picked up can't do the job, and we go 6-10, he deserves to be canned, instantly, possibly getting canned mid-season if we're bad enough.

My benchmark is even lower than yours for "success" at this point. I just see us being $20M in cap space and 5 players away from being a "good" team and I see the disaster in all of this. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but he's done more to prove me right than otherwise up to this point.


March 19th, 2013, 5:55 pm
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Post Re: CJ restructured also.
Shotty wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Ok, can we take this in another direction for a moment, just to answer a question?

How much of this becomes moot when/if the Lions win? By win I mean go deeper in the playoffs then ever before? Maybe not SB but NFC Championship or the game before it?


well it would all be moot if WJB was full of hot air. But sadly he is not. The problem lies in the idea that we NEED to win and win now, cuz cap issues are not going to go away. Mayhew is going to be forced to bite the preverbial bullet and eat a lot of dead money for a year or two. He's post poning it as long as he can, but sooner or later the chickens are going to come home to roost and there will be no money left.

you think things were tight last year? lookout cuz a year is comming where we are going to cut guys wholesale with no money to sign replacements.


A new deal for Stafford and Suh trade WILL eventually happen, and save us $20 million in each of the first two seasons after they occur. Tulloch's guaranteed $$ will be out by then, Burleson's contract will expire, Corey Williams is gone soon, and if not will come back and be a decent rotational DT at a very low price (which he said he'd like to do). Best's contract will end. All of these changes will happen in the next few years. Add in a bunch of cheap guys from the draft, and we'll OK if we draft well and make better decisions regarding our free agents. The only guys you can bet will be Lions in 5 years are Stafford, CJ, Broyles, Reiff, Fairley, Houston, and Quin. The rest falls on how Mayhew gets things done, and believe it or not, I trust him to do a decent job of putting an at-least decent roster out there each year.


The Suh trade will still eat the cap room for the year he's traded because of the contract restructures, it is not a going to make things better until the following year. If they extend Stafford by next year that will give the team just 2014 before CJ's contract starts his $20M cap hits in 2015 and they have to again start playing the restructure game. Maybe the cap will go up big but even if it does a $20M cap hit will still be huge. By 2015 Staff and CJ will most likely be responsible for $30M+ in a cap hit and that's just 2 guys.


March 19th, 2013, 5:58 pm
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Post Re: CJ restructured also.
wjb21ndtown wrote:
rao wrote:
regularjoe12 explained it pretty well. The only way I see this stuff becoming moot is if they win a Super Bowl. A SB gets them enough good will to survive a rebuild, but anything else will look like they gave up.


If we make the playoffs and play solid football again with Bently as a #2 CB, Lewis at DE, Whitehead (or anyone) playing cheap SSLB, Nagy/Fox surviving a whole season, Reiff playing quality LT and Broyles somehow becomes a #2 WR, Mayhew's "rebuild"/team build was successful.

If that happens and we're playing quality football, I don't even care if we barely MISS the playoffs (8-8 with an almost or couple close calls, or 9-7 and we get the short end of the stick), Mayhew did a good job and deserves his paycheck.

If the 2nd round and later picks and FAs that he picked up can't do the job, and we go 6-10, he deserves to be canned, instantly, possibly getting canned mid-season if we're bad enough.

My benchmark is even lower than yours for "success" at this point. I just see us being $20M in cap space and 5 players away from being a "good" team and I see the disaster in all of this. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but he's done more to prove me right than otherwise up to this point.


So you'll hold onto that? 8-8 or better and he reasonably deserves more time? If we have a great, not good, draft AND stay very healthy I think we can win 9-11 games with this roster and 1-2 more holes filled.

Remember, we were 5-0 with Jahvid Best since 2011, and winning when he got injured. We have our Jahvid Best back. No way would we have even looked at Bush if he didn't have that Jahvid Best speed and miss only one game in his last 32.

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March 19th, 2013, 6:01 pm
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Post Re: CJ restructured also.
wjb21ndtown wrote:
rao wrote:
regularjoe12 explained it pretty well. The only way I see this stuff becoming moot is if they win a Super Bowl. A SB gets them enough good will to survive a rebuild, but anything else will look like they gave up.


If we make the playoffs and play solid football again with Bently as a #2 CB, Lewis at DE, Whitehead (or anyone) playing cheap SSLB, Nagy/Fox surviving a whole season, Reiff playing quality LT and Broyles somehow becomes a #2 WR, Mayhew's "rebuild"/team build was successful.

If that happens and we're playing quality football, I don't even care if we barely MISS the playoffs (8-8 with an almost or couple close calls, or 9-7 and we get the short end of the stick), Mayhew did a good job and deserves his paycheck.

If the 2nd round and later picks and FAs that he picked up can't do the job, and we go 6-10, he deserves to be canned, instantly, possibly getting canned mid-season if we're bad enough.

My benchmark is even lower than yours for "success" at this point. I just see us being $20M in cap space and 5 players away from being a "good" team and I see the disaster in all of this. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but he's done more to prove me right than otherwise up to this point.


Haha, I don't disagree with you on that. I just couldn't process in my mind a way Mayhew could have drafted that well.


March 19th, 2013, 6:02 pm
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Post Re: CJ restructured also.
Shotty wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
rao wrote:
regularjoe12 explained it pretty well. The only way I see this stuff becoming moot is if they win a Super Bowl. A SB gets them enough good will to survive a rebuild, but anything else will look like they gave up.


If we make the playoffs and play solid football again with Bently as a #2 CB, Lewis at DE, Whitehead (or anyone) playing cheap SSLB, Nagy/Fox surviving a whole season, Reiff playing quality LT and Broyles somehow becomes a #2 WR, Mayhew's "rebuild"/team build was successful.

If that happens and we're playing quality football, I don't even care if we barely MISS the playoffs (8-8 with an almost or couple close calls, or 9-7 and we get the short end of the stick), Mayhew did a good job and deserves his paycheck.

If the 2nd round and later picks and FAs that he picked up can't do the job, and we go 6-10, he deserves to be canned, instantly, possibly getting canned mid-season if we're bad enough.

My benchmark is even lower than yours for "success" at this point. I just see us being $20M in cap space and 5 players away from being a "good" team and I see the disaster in all of this. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but he's done more to prove me right than otherwise up to this point.


So you'll hold onto that? 8-8 or better and he reasonably deserves more time? If we have a great, not good, draft AND stay very healthy I think we can win 9-11 games with this roster and 1-2 more holes filled.

Remember, we were 5-0 with Jahvid Best since 2011, and winning when he got injured. We have our Jahvid Best back. No way would we have even looked at Bush if he didn't have that Jahvid Best speed and miss only one game in his last 32.


Oh, of course I will be! I was happy when we went 6-10 or whatever it was when we were "progressing," and I liked Mayhew and gave him the BOTD when he first took the reigns. I'd be happy for him to re-gain my trust.


March 19th, 2013, 6:57 pm
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Post Re: CJ restructured also.
Shotty wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Ok, can we take this in another direction for a moment, just to answer a question?

How much of this becomes moot when/if the Lions win? By win I mean go deeper in the playoffs then ever before? Maybe not SB but NFC Championship or the game before it?


well it would all be moot if WJB was full of hot air. But sadly he is not. The problem lies in the idea that we NEED to win and win now, cuz cap issues are not going to go away. Mayhew is going to be forced to bite the preverbial bullet and eat a lot of dead money for a year or two. He's post poning it as long as he can, but sooner or later the chickens are going to come home to roost and there will be no money left.

you think things were tight last year? lookout cuz a year is comming where we are going to cut guys wholesale with no money to sign replacements.


A new deal for Stafford and Suh trade WILL eventually happen, and save us $20 million in each of the first two seasons after they occur. Tulloch's guaranteed $$ will be out by then, Burleson's contract will expire, Corey Williams is gone soon, and if not will come back and be a decent rotational DT at a very low price (which he said he'd like to do). Best's contract will end. All of these changes will happen in the next few years. Add in a bunch of cheap guys from the draft, and we'll OK if we draft well and make better decisions regarding our free agents. The only guys you can bet will be Lions in 5 years are Stafford, CJ, Broyles, Reiff, Fairley, Houston, and Quin. The rest falls on how Mayhew gets things done, and believe it or not, I trust him to do a decent job of putting an at-least decent roster out there each year.


=D> That may be the best post you have ever posted here Shotty.


March 19th, 2013, 10:05 pm
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Post Re: CJ restructured also.
regularjoe12 wrote:
I agree with you in general, but i dont see how we are not going to see a year where we make last year look like it was raining dolla bills! The Suh contract is where the problem lies. I dont know what we can do about that, but realistically I can't see him playing here through the voidable year on his contract. We are going to eat about 4-5 GOOD players worth of salary that one year. Everything else is nitpicking IMO, but the Suh contract is going to cause a mess. I just dont see a way around it.


I would just add: And I don't see any way we could have avoided it due to the CBA that we were operating under at the time. It's just easier to blame the guy that didn't have the choice for something that was completely out of his control.


March 19th, 2013, 10:10 pm
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Post Re: CJ restructured also.
I didn't feel like reading through 4 pages of arguments but wanted to point out that this "27 million" figure includes "player transactions" such as the cutting of KVB and Peterman, the retirement of Backus, the pay cuts of Burleson and Raiola and yes Suh and CJ's restructures. So looking at real numbers CJ changed his 5M base salary to a 715,000 base salary, spreading the remaining $4M and change out over 5 years( including this one) so $3,428,000 was pushed into the future for CJ. As for Suh, they took his base salary of $12M I believe and made it $630,000. This pushed a little under $8M "down the road" since once again, part of the "reduction" hit this year as a bonus.

Thus we pushed a total of $11,008,000 down the road, not $27M.


March 19th, 2013, 10:33 pm
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Post Re: CJ restructured also.
http://www.detroitlions.com/news/ohara/ ... 595c72e8d0

Here's a link to the full article with the quote WJB used.


March 19th, 2013, 10:42 pm
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Post Re: CJ restructured also.
inheritedlionsfan wrote:
I didn't feel like reading through 4 pages of arguments but wanted to point out that this "27 million" figure includes "player transactions" such as the cutting of KVB and Peterman, the retirement of Backus, the pay cuts of Burleson and Raiola and yes Suh and CJ's restructures. So looking at real numbers CJ changed his 5M base salary to a 715,000 base salary, spreading the remaining $4M and change out over 5 years( including this one) so $3,428,000 was pushed into the future for CJ. As for Suh, they took his base salary of $12M I believe and made it $630,000. This pushed a little under $8M "down the road" since once again, part of the "reduction" hit this year as a bonus.

Thus we pushed a total of $11,008,000 down the road, not $27M.

Thanks for the figures - helpful stuff.

On top of the $11m pushed down the road, the concern for me is that we've used the space created this year to sign a number of backloaded contracts. So for Bush, for example, iirc he's averaging something like $4m a year but only hits for $2m this year - ie there's an extra $2m to hit in later years.

Given how tight we were against the cap this year, the combination of the $11m "pushed down the road" for contracted players plus the money we "pushed down the road" by backloading for new FA signings certainly has me worried. It's not scientific by any measure, but if we're tight today and we've pushed more money back, we're surely going to be way over in the future.

So it still looks to me like we have a 2 year window to do something, following which we'll be into a rebuilding phase again.

The FA signings have been good, IMO (I think Bush fits this offense well, Glover and Delmas (if they play 16 games together) will be a huge step up for this defence) so we have a better chance to do that something in that 2 year window than we had before. But will it be good enough?


March 20th, 2013, 5:49 am
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Post Re: CJ restructured also.
I'm not saying I'm for or against the restructures, just wanted the facts out there. It was $11M not $27 as the other $16M was created by cuts, retirements and pay cuts, not money pushed down the road.

As of right now it looks like we've got about 125 million or so in cap commitments for next season, obviously not including this years or next years rookies and whatever other players we add in free agency. The significant free agents we'll have next year are Willie Young, Spievey, Jason Fox, Raiola - who I expect will retire, and both TEs Scheffler and Pettigrew.

As I've been advocating for awhile now, we should release Mike Thomas and that will save us 1.5M this year and 3.5M next year. That 3.5M will almost be enough to sign our rookies next year as they should cost about 4M or so. This years rookies will cost approximately 4M this year and approximately 6M next year.

So next year we're looking at about 10M for rookies and second year guys, minus of course the salaries that drop off the cap for the top 51 rule. That leaves us at about $135M on a cap I expect to be at best $127M. And we will still have some holes to fill.

So what can we do about it? Cut Mike Thomas to trim $3.5M. Either cut Nate and save $5M or have him take a paycut to stay which could save us up to 4M. Extend Stafford which could save us between 3 and 8 million depending on how it's structured. And lastly figure out what to do with Suh.


March 20th, 2013, 11:04 am
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Post Re: CJ restructured also.
inheritedlionsfan wrote:
I'm not saying I'm for or against the restructures, just wanted the facts out there. It was $11M not $27 as the other $16M was created by cuts, retirements and pay cuts, not money pushed down the road.

Yeah, I know that and appreciate it.

inheritedlionsfan wrote:
As of right now it looks like we've got about 125 million or so in cap commitments for next season, obviously not including this years or next years rookies and whatever other players we add in free agency. The significant free agents we'll have next year are Willie Young, Spievey, Jason Fox, Raiola - who I expect will retire, and both TEs Scheffler and Pettigrew.

As I've been advocating for awhile now, we should release Mike Thomas and that will save us 1.5M this year and 3.5M next year. That 3.5M will almost be enough to sign our rookies next year as they should cost about 4M or so. This years rookies will cost approximately 4M this year and approximately 6M next year.

So next year we're looking at about 10M for rookies and second year guys, minus of course the salaries that drop off the cap for the top 51 rule. That leaves us at about $135M on a cap I expect to be at best $127M. And we will still have some holes to fill.

So what can we do about it? Cut Mike Thomas to trim $3.5M. Either cut Nate and save $5M or have him take a paycut to stay which could save us up to 4M. Extend Stafford which could save us between 3 and 8 million depending on how it's structured. And lastly figure out what to do with Suh.

2014 looks manageable to me - a Stafford extension, Railoa retirement, Mike Thomas cut and Burleson cut or paycut gives us plenty to play with to keep the core of this team around and maybe even add a little. It's 2015 I'm worried about.

I hope I have it wrong, like I say it's from a simplistic "we were up against it in 2013, we've pushed $11m down the road and signed a few backloaded deals, surely we have to be worse than up against it in 2015" POV, and there's the possibility of the cap expanding in 2015. But it looks to me like we've built a team for a run over the next 2 seasons, with a necessary rebuild to come after that.


March 20th, 2013, 11:10 am
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Post Re: CJ restructured also.
I think you're partially right about 2015, but it all depends on what we do with Suh and Stafford and how high the cap ends up going. If it raises 10 to 12M like it did in years prior to this new CBA then we'll have some wiggle room. 2015 we're looking at guys like Fairley, LeShoure, Rob Sims, Delmas, Nagy, Hilliard and Palmer as FA.


March 20th, 2013, 11:20 am
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Post Re: CJ restructured also.
SUh is what he is, Mayhew guaranteed that with the restructure. He will play here with that huge contract, then void his final year and still count for (i think) 9Million for the year he doesnt play with us.

As others have said in otehr threads, the cap sitation will be fine in only 1 case, if we turn last years and this years rd 3+ Players into starters in our roughest seasons. They will still all be on 1st contracts and semi-cheap. If we keep drafting poorly (cant really tell if its poor or not since they avoid playing the rooks even during a lost season) then we will have to fill holes with FAs, and the cap will hurt us.


March 20th, 2013, 2:50 pm
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Post Re: CJ restructured also.
UK Lion wrote:
inheritedlionsfan wrote:
I'm not saying I'm for or against the restructures, just wanted the facts out there. It was $11M not $27 as the other $16M was created by cuts, retirements and pay cuts, not money pushed down the road.

Yeah, I know that and appreciate it.

inheritedlionsfan wrote:
As of right now it looks like we've got about 125 million or so in cap commitments for next season, obviously not including this years or next years rookies and whatever other players we add in free agency. The significant free agents we'll have next year are Willie Young, Spievey, Jason Fox, Raiola - who I expect will retire, and both TEs Scheffler and Pettigrew.

As I've been advocating for awhile now, we should release Mike Thomas and that will save us 1.5M this year and 3.5M next year. That 3.5M will almost be enough to sign our rookies next year as they should cost about 4M or so. This years rookies will cost approximately 4M this year and approximately 6M next year.

So next year we're looking at about 10M for rookies and second year guys, minus of course the salaries that drop off the cap for the top 51 rule. That leaves us at about $135M on a cap I expect to be at best $127M. And we will still have some holes to fill.

So what can we do about it? Cut Mike Thomas to trim $3.5M. Either cut Nate and save $5M or have him take a paycut to stay which could save us up to 4M. Extend Stafford which could save us between 3 and 8 million depending on how it's structured. And lastly figure out what to do with Suh.

2014 looks manageable to me - a Stafford extension, Railoa retirement, Mike Thomas cut and Burleson cut or paycut gives us plenty to play with to keep the core of this team around and maybe even add a little. It's 2015 I'm worried about.

I hope I have it wrong, like I say it's from a simplistic "we were up against it in 2013, we've pushed $11m down the road and signed a few backloaded deals, surely we have to be worse than up against it in 2015" POV, and there's the possibility of the cap expanding in 2015. But it looks to me like we've built a team for a run over the next 2 seasons, with a necessary rebuild to come after that.


You do realize that CJs contract goes up by about $10M per next season, right?

Edit... Opps, it's only about $5M next year, it goes up another $7M to $20M in 2015.

We can't keep "restructuring" and pushing this crap down the road. It's not sustainable.


March 21st, 2013, 1:25 pm
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