View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently September 18th, 2014, 1:48 am



Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
 Is this the best Suh Scenario? 
Author Message
Junior Varsity

Joined: March 26th, 2006, 11:09 am
Posts: 165
Post Is this the best Suh Scenario?
If they let Suh play out his contract, and then apply the non-exclusive franchise tag. That would pay him less than he is making now, and if some other team decides to tender him a contract, we let him go with two first round picks as compensation. Do I have that right?


March 20th, 2013, 10:46 am
Profile
ST Coordinator – Danny Crossman
User avatar

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 am
Posts: 3787
Location: Davison Mi
Post Re: Is this the best Suh Scenario?
Personally I think the best scenario is also the most unlikely. It would involve a serious humbling on Suh's behalf. If he does a new contract (before his voidable year) and keeps his expectaions realistic about his new contract and be willing to accept a reasonable contract with a VERY low front end. this would minimize the damage done on his rediculous salary he is going to get reguardless, and start him the next year at a much more managable price tag. This way we could keep him and his tallent here in detroit. Ideally that would be spectacular.

But like i said, that is VERY unlikely to happen.

_________________
2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion


March 20th, 2013, 10:55 am
Profile
Online
QB Coach

Joined: January 13th, 2006, 4:18 am
Posts: 3192
Location: Maryland
Post Re: Is this the best Suh Scenario?
I believe the tag would still represent a salary equal to 120% of his previous salary or an average of the top 5 or 10 players (I forget which) whichever is higher. Since the 120% is higher, that's what would apply. There's no way for him to be making less money other than him agreeing to a contract extension.


I feel like we're going to try to get him to extend his contract and as much as I like him as a player I'd rather trade him (assuming he's got astronomical contract ideas in his head). We can likely get a first round pick.


March 20th, 2013, 11:14 am
Profile
Butkus Award Winner

Joined: July 3rd, 2012, 2:06 am
Posts: 649
Post Re: Is this the best Suh Scenario?
inheritedlionsfan wrote:
I believe the tag would still represent a salary equal to 120% of his previous salary or an average of the top 5 or 10 players (I forget which) whichever is higher. Since the 120% is higher, that's what would apply. There's no way for him to be making less money other than him agreeing to a contract extension.


I feel like we're going to try to get him to extend his contract and as much as I like him as a player I'd rather trade him (assuming he's got astronomical contract ideas in his head). We can likely get a first round pick.


I don't see a team being willing to take on his remaining contract and pay him at least $17 million a year then extending him, AND throwing in a 1st round pick. Maybe a 2nd. A first would be an absolute miracle.

_________________
Image


March 20th, 2013, 11:18 am
Profile
NFL Veteran

Joined: November 28th, 2007, 12:50 pm
Posts: 1369
Location: Newport Beach, Ca
Post Re: Is this the best Suh Scenario?
Suh's value is gone now because of the restructures. Trading him won't save much money if any at all that year and your going to get very little back. If Suh is traded that becomes a rebuilding year, so it'll probably make more sense to let him play out his deal and just eat the $9M when he voids his last year. Once he hits the free agent market his contract demands should become more reasonable because other teams won't be starting from his old contract. He will probably leave for a different team, but the Lions can still try and bid with the rest of the teams. Worst case scenario is they get a 3rd round comp pick the following year.


March 20th, 2013, 12:26 pm
Profile
ST Coordinator – Danny Crossman
User avatar

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 am
Posts: 3787
Location: Davison Mi
Post Re: Is this the best Suh Scenario?
rao wrote:
Suh's value is gone now because of the restructures. Trading him won't save much money if any at all that year and your going to get very little back. If Suh is traded that becomes a rebuilding year, so it'll probably make more sense to let him play out his deal and just eat the $9M when he voids his last year. Once he hits the free agent market his contract demands should become more reasonable because other teams won't be starting from his old contract. He will probably leave for a different team, but the Lions can still try and bid with the rest of the teams. Worst case scenario is they get a 3rd round comp pick the following year.



the draft pick is the ONLY reason I say try and trade him. we can trade him and then taht team could do a new contract from him with us eating the significant chunk of his salary and we could end up with more/better draft picks.

_________________
2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion


March 20th, 2013, 12:38 pm
Profile
NFL Veteran

Joined: November 28th, 2007, 12:50 pm
Posts: 1369
Location: Newport Beach, Ca
Post Re: Is this the best Suh Scenario?
regularjoe12 wrote:
rao wrote:
Suh's value is gone now because of the restructures. Trading him won't save much money if any at all that year and your going to get very little back. If Suh is traded that becomes a rebuilding year, so it'll probably make more sense to let him play out his deal and just eat the $9M when he voids his last year. Once he hits the free agent market his contract demands should become more reasonable because other teams won't be starting from his old contract. He will probably leave for a different team, but the Lions can still try and bid with the rest of the teams. Worst case scenario is they get a 3rd round comp pick the following year.



the draft pick is the ONLY reason I say try and trade him. we can trade him and then taht team could do a new contract from him with us eating the significant chunk of his salary and we could end up with more/better draft picks.


How are the Lions going to eat a chunk of his salary? His dead money next year is $19M and his cap hit is $21M, trading him only gets them $2M in cap relief. The team taking him will also require $11M in cap space and must have a deal worked out with Suh or be ok with losing him in free agency. Don't forget to add that Suh has no real incentive to work out an extension since there is a chance he could hit the free agency market at the same time the cap gets a big raise. Suh has all the leverage and as long as he continues to play well and doesn't get a major injury he will be the one dictating how things go.


March 20th, 2013, 1:33 pm
Profile
ST Coordinator – Danny Crossman
User avatar

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 am
Posts: 3787
Location: Davison Mi
Post Re: Is this the best Suh Scenario?
rao wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
rao wrote:
Suh's value is gone now because of the restructures. Trading him won't save much money if any at all that year and your going to get very little back. If Suh is traded that becomes a rebuilding year, so it'll probably make more sense to let him play out his deal and just eat the $9M when he voids his last year. Once he hits the free agent market his contract demands should become more reasonable because other teams won't be starting from his old contract. He will probably leave for a different team, but the Lions can still try and bid with the rest of the teams. Worst case scenario is they get a 3rd round comp pick the following year.



the draft pick is the ONLY reason I say try and trade him. we can trade him and then taht team could do a new contract from him with us eating the significant chunk of his salary and we could end up with more/better draft picks.


How are the Lions going to eat a chunk of his salary? His dead money next year is $19M and his cap hit is $21M, trading him only gets them $2M in cap relief. The team taking him will also require $11M in cap space and must have a deal worked out with Suh or be ok with losing him in free agency. Don't forget to add that Suh has no real incentive to work out an extension since there is a chance he could hit the free agency market at the same time the cap gets a big raise. Suh has all the leverage and as long as he continues to play well and doesn't get a major injury he will be the one dictating how things go.



I dont understand what you mean by "how"


how can they possibly avoid it? No matter what we are stuck with the bill. we need to realize that and be proactive about it. there is no way to avoid a HUGE sum of dead money due to his contract. there is no way to avoid it.

Most teams doing this kind of trade will work out a new deal agreement before they even do the trade. so if he's not willing to sign a better contract with the team there wouldn't be a trade and we are hose either way. at least with a trade we can get SOMETHING of value past 2015.

but you are correct. the ball is 100% in Suh's court. he'll get to dictate if we can trade him or not.

let it be said though that I am not advocating getting rid of the guy. I'd love for him to be a Lion ....I just down see how thats going to happen.

_________________
2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion


March 20th, 2013, 1:38 pm
Profile
Junior Varsity

Joined: March 26th, 2006, 11:09 am
Posts: 165
Post Re: Is this the best Suh Scenario?
inheritedlionsfan wrote:
I believe the tag would still represent a salary equal to 120% of his previous salary or an average of the top 5 or 10 players (I forget which) whichever is higher. Since the 120% is higher, that's what would apply. There's no way for him to be making less money other than him agreeing to a contract extension.


I feel like we're going to try to get him to extend his contract and as much as I like him as a player I'd rather trade him (assuming he's got astronomical contract ideas in his head). We can likely get a first round pick.


From what I read, the "non-exclusive" tag pays 120% or avg of the top 5 salaries whichever is LOWER, and allows the player to negotiate with other teams. the "exclusive" tag pays 120% or avg of the top 5 whichever is HIGHER, and does not allow the player to negotiate with other teams. Since Suh is the highest paid DT in the league he would have to be paid less.


March 20th, 2013, 1:59 pm
Profile
NFL Veteran

Joined: November 28th, 2007, 12:50 pm
Posts: 1369
Location: Newport Beach, Ca
Post Re: Is this the best Suh Scenario?
regularjoe12 wrote:
rao wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
rao wrote:
Suh's value is gone now because of the restructures. Trading him won't save much money if any at all that year and your going to get very little back. If Suh is traded that becomes a rebuilding year, so it'll probably make more sense to let him play out his deal and just eat the $9M when he voids his last year. Once he hits the free agent market his contract demands should become more reasonable because other teams won't be starting from his old contract. He will probably leave for a different team, but the Lions can still try and bid with the rest of the teams. Worst case scenario is they get a 3rd round comp pick the following year.



the draft pick is the ONLY reason I say try and trade him. we can trade him and then taht team could do a new contract from him with us eating the significant chunk of his salary and we could end up with more/better draft picks.


How are the Lions going to eat a chunk of his salary? His dead money next year is $19M and his cap hit is $21M, trading him only gets them $2M in cap relief. The team taking him will also require $11M in cap space and must have a deal worked out with Suh or be ok with losing him in free agency. Don't forget to add that Suh has no real incentive to work out an extension since there is a chance he could hit the free agency market at the same time the cap gets a big raise. Suh has all the leverage and as long as he continues to play well and doesn't get a major injury he will be the one dictating how things go.



I dont understand what you mean by "how"


how can they possibly avoid it? No matter what we are stuck with the bill. we need to realize that and be proactive about it. there is no way to avoid a HUGE sum of dead money due to his contract. there is no way to avoid it.

Most teams doing this kind of trade will work out a new deal agreement before they even do the trade. so if he's not willing to sign a better contract with the team there wouldn't be a trade and we are hose either way. at least with a trade we can get SOMETHING of value past 2015.

but you are correct. the ball is 100% in Suh's court. he'll get to dictate if we can trade him or not.

let it be said though that I am not advocating getting rid of the guy. I'd love for him to be a Lion ....I just down see how thats going to happen.


I didn't understand what you meant by eating his salary, I thought you were saying they could eat some of his base salary to make a team willing to give more for Suh.

The Lions will get a 3rd rd comp pick if Suh leaves, unless they sign some crazy high profile FA.

I'm actually for trading Suh next year and just eating the money, but I can't see any way it happens that isn't just a dream scenario.


March 20th, 2013, 2:02 pm
Profile
Fired Head Coach (0-16 record)

Joined: October 13th, 2005, 9:03 am
Posts: 2299
Post Re: Is this the best Suh Scenario?
This last "I'm helping the team" by taking more guaranteed money made moving Suh before 2015 next to impossible. There just is no real incentive for the team to make any move sooner than that. If they would have left him as he was they could have moved him after June 1st (even if it were at the trade deadline) and split his guaranteed money over this season and next at roughly $9 million a season. Having $9 million of dead money for two seasons would hurt but at least they'd have compensation and not having $20 million tied up in a DT. Now Mayhew needs to bite the bullet and not touch Suh's contract anymore regardless of the cap situation. He needs to sit back pay Suh his close to $20 million in 2014 and openly shop him in 2015 when his value hopefully hasn't diminished. I think if they would have waited until after June 1st to trade him this season they could have gotten at minimum a 1st and 2nd round pick from the Cowboys. They are going to be hurting for a Tampa 2 DT and Suh is the perfect cure.


March 20th, 2013, 2:03 pm
Profile
NFL Veteran

Joined: November 28th, 2007, 12:50 pm
Posts: 1369
Location: Newport Beach, Ca
Post Re: Is this the best Suh Scenario?
sweetd20 wrote:
This last "I'm helping the team" by taking more guaranteed money made moving Suh before 2015 next to impossible. There just is no real incentive for the team to make any move sooner than that. If they would have left him as he was they could have moved him after June 1st (even if it were at the trade deadline) and split his guaranteed money over this season and next at roughly $9 million a season. Having $9 million of dead money for two seasons would hurt but at least they'd have compensation and not having $20 million tied up in a DT. Now Mayhew needs to bite the bullet and not touch Suh's contract anymore regardless of the cap situation. He needs to sit back pay Suh his close to $20 million in 2014 and openly shop him in 2015 when his value hopefully hasn't diminished. I think if they would have waited until after June 1st to trade him this season they could have gotten at minimum a 1st and 2nd round pick from the Cowboys. They are going to be hurting for a Tampa 2 DT and Suh is the perfect cure.


Suh's cap hit next year isn't just close to $20M, it's over that amount at $21.4M.

Mayhew can't shop Suh in 2015, 2015 is a voidable year. There is no reason Suh wouldn't void it and no team would be dumb enough to give something for a player that is going to make himself a FA.


March 20th, 2013, 2:15 pm
Profile
NFL Veteran

Joined: November 28th, 2007, 12:50 pm
Posts: 1369
Location: Newport Beach, Ca
Post Re: Is this the best Suh Scenario?
Wackadoo wrote:
inheritedlionsfan wrote:
I believe the tag would still represent a salary equal to 120% of his previous salary or an average of the top 5 or 10 players (I forget which) whichever is higher. Since the 120% is higher, that's what would apply. There's no way for him to be making less money other than him agreeing to a contract extension.


I feel like we're going to try to get him to extend his contract and as much as I like him as a player I'd rather trade him (assuming he's got astronomical contract ideas in his head). We can likely get a first round pick.


From what I read, the "non-exclusive" tag pays 120% or avg of the top 5 salaries whichever is LOWER, and allows the player to negotiate with other teams. the "exclusive" tag pays 120% or avg of the top 5 whichever is HIGHER, and does not allow the player to negotiate with other teams. Since Suh is the highest paid DT in the league he would have to be paid less.


That isn't right, if that were correct the Dolphins would not have let Jake Long go into free agency this year.


March 20th, 2013, 2:17 pm
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: January 26th, 2005, 9:34 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Sycamore, IL
Post Re: Is this the best Suh Scenario?
Rao, the dolphins realized that long wasn't worth the price tag either of those presented and let him walk. Are, they wanted him back, but not at the price tag represented by the N-E FT. So, you're wrong and wackadoo is right. See below for the N-E FT rules.

Quote:
A "non-exclusive" franchise player must be offered a one-year contract for an amount no less than the average of the top five salaries at the player's position for the previous year, or 120 percent of the player's previous year's salary, whichever is less. A non-exclusive franchise player may negotiate with other NFL teams, but if he signs an offer sheet from another team, the original team has a right to match the terms of that offer, or if it does not match the offer and thus loses the player, is entitled to receive two first-round draft picks as compensation.

_________________
_____
I have no faith this team will win a game the rest of the year. The kitties finish at 7-9 and Miss the playoffs as GB wins out and takes it from the kitties.
Image


March 20th, 2013, 2:53 pm
Profile
NFL Veteran

Joined: November 28th, 2007, 12:50 pm
Posts: 1369
Location: Newport Beach, Ca
Post Re: Is this the best Suh Scenario?
conversion02 wrote:
Rao, the dolphins realized that long wasn't worth the price tag either of those presented and let him walk. Are, they wanted him back, but not at the price tag represented by the N-E FT. So, you're wrong and wackadoo is right. See below for the N-E FT rules.

Quote:
A "non-exclusive" franchise player must be offered a one-year contract for an amount no less than the average of the top five salaries at the player's position for the previous year, or 120 percent of the player's previous year's salary, whichever is less. A non-exclusive franchise player may negotiate with other NFL teams, but if he signs an offer sheet from another team, the original team has a right to match the terms of that offer, or if it does not match the offer and thus loses the player, is entitled to receive two first-round draft picks as compensation.


Are you guys using Wikipedia? I have never seen it written like that anywhere else.

here is an article with the actual CBA language.

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2012/2/15/2800567/rules-regarding-the-franchise-tag-per-the-collective-bargaining

Quote:
Section 1. Franchise Player Designations:

Except as set forth in Section 9 below, each Club shall be permitted to designate one of its players who would otherwise be an Unrestricted Free Agent as a Franchise Player each season during the term of this Agreement. The player so designated may be one who would otherwise be a Restricted Free Agent. Except as set forth in Section 2(a)(i) below, any Club that designates a Franchise Player shall be the only Club with which such Franchise Player may negotiate or sign a Player Contract during the period the player is so designated, notwithstanding the number of his Accrued Seasons. The period for Clubs to designate Franchise Players will begin on the twenty-second day preceding the first day of the new League Year and will end at 4:00pm New York time on the eighth day preceding the first day of the new League Year.
Section 2. Required Tender for Franchise Players:

(a) Except as provided in Subsection (b) below, any Club that designates a Franchise Player shall on the date the designation is made notify the player and the NFLPA which one of the following two potential required tenders the Club has selected:

(i) Nonexclusive Franchise Tender. The Nonexclusive Franchise Tender shall be a one year NFL Player Contract for (A) the average of the five largest Prior Year Salaries for players at the position (within the categories set forth in Section 7(a) below) at which the Franchise Player participated in the most plays during the prior League Year, which average shall be calculated by: (1) summing the amounts of the Franchise Tags for players at that position for the five preceding League Years; (2) dividing the resulting amount by the sum of the Salary Caps for the five preceding League Years (using the average of the amounts of the 2009 and 2011 Salary Caps as the Salary Cap amount for the 2010 League Year); and (3) multiplying the resulting percentage by the Salary Cap for the upcoming League Year (e.g., when calculating the Tender for the 2012 League Year, dividing the aggregate sum of the Franchise Tags for players at that position for the 2007–2011 League Years by the aggregate sum of the Salary Caps for the 2007–2011 League Years and multiplying the result by the amount of the Salary Cap for the 2012 League Year) (the "Cap Percentage Average") (See Appendix E for an illustrative example); or (B) 120% of his Prior Year Salary, whichever is greater; if the Club extends the Tender pursuant to this Subsection (a)(i), the player shall be permitted to negotiate a Player Contract with any Club as if he were a player subject to Section 5 below, except that Draft Choice Compensation of two first round draft selections shall be made with respect to such player in the event he signs with the New Club, and the Signing Period for such player shall be determined under Section 14 below. For purposes of this Subsection, the "Franchise Tag" is the average of the five largest Prior Year Salaries (e.g., the Franchise Tag for the 2010 League Year equals the average of the five largest Salaries for the 2009 League Year for players at that position); or

(ii) Exclusive Franchise Tender. The Exclusive Franchise Tender shall be a one year NFL Player Contract for (A) the average of the five largest Salaries in Player Contracts for that League Year as of the end of the Restricted Free Agent Signing Period that League Year, as set forth in Article 9, Section 2(e), for players at the position (within the categories set forth in Section 7(a) below) at which he participated in the most plays during the prior League Year, or (B) the amount of the Required Tender under Subsection (a)(i) above, whichever is greater.

(b) Any Club that designates a player as a Franchise Player for the third time shall, on the date the third such designation is made, be deemed to have tendered the player a one-year NFL Player Contract for the greater of: (A) the average of the five largest Prior Year Salaries for players at the position (within the categories set forth in Section 7(a) below) with the highest such average; (B) 120% of the average of the five largest Prior Year Salaries for players at the position (within the categories set forth in Section 7(a) below) at which the player participated in the most plays during the prior League Year; or (C) 144% of his Prior Year Salary. (By way of example, a kicker designated as a Franchise Player for the third time in the 2014 League Year would have a Required Tender equal to the greater of: (i) the average of the five largest 2013 Salaries for quarterbacks; (ii) 120% of the average of the five largest 2013 Salaries for kickers; or (iii) 144% of the player’s own 2013 Salary.) If the Club designates the player as a Franchise Player for the third time, the designating Club shall be the only Club with which the player may negotiate or sign a Player Contract. In lieu of designating such a player as a Franchise Player for the third time, any Club may designate such player as a Transition Player pursuant to Section 3 below.

(c) If a player subject to a Franchise Player designation accepts the Required Tender, the resulting Player Contract shall be fully guaranteed if the player’s contract is terminated because of lack of comparative skill; as a result of an injury sustained in the performance of his services under his Player Contract; and/or due to a Club’s determination to create Room for Salary Cap purposes. For purposes of this Subsection only, any contract termination due to the failure of the player to establish or maintain his excellent physical condition will be subject to review of a neutral physician appointed by the parties, whose physical findings will be conclusive in any arbitration proceeding relating to the physical condition of the player at the time of the exam, provided that such exam takes place within twenty (20) days of the contract termination.

(d) Any of the Required Tenders set forth in this Section 2 may be withdrawn at any time, but if such Tender is withdrawn, the player immediately becomes an Unrestricted Free Agent and thereafter is completely free to negotiate and sign a Player Contract with any Club, and any Club shall be completely free to negotiate and sign a Player Contract with any such player, without any penalty or restriction, including, but not limited to, Draft Choice Compensation between Clubs or First Refusal Rights of any kind, or any signing period.

(e) For the purposes of this Article, "Salary" means the total of the Paragraph 5 Salary (reduced proportionately if the contract is entered into after the first regular season game), roster and reporting bonuses, pro-rata portion of signing bonus, and other payments to players in compensation for the playing of professional football for the applicable year of the player’s most recently negotiated Player Contract, except for performance bonuses other than roster and reporting bonuses. Salary shall also include any unrepaid loans made, guaranteed or collateralized by a Team or its Team Affiliate to a player or Player Affiliate. "Prior Year Salary" means the Salary (as defined in this Subsection) for the last League Year of the player’s most recently negotiated Player Contract.

(f) The calculation of any five largest Prior Year Salaries shall include any Player Contract resulting from acceptance of a Tender for the Prior Year pursuant to Section 2(a)(i) or (a)(ii) above, provided that the player played during the Prior League Year pursuant to the Tender, but shall not include the amount of any term of a Player Contract renegotiated after the Monday of the tenth week of the regular season of the Prior League Year that provides for an unearned incentive to be treated as signing bonus.

(g) The calculation of any five largest Salaries for the current League Year as of the end of the Restricted Free Agent signing period pursuant to Section 2(a)(ii) above shall include any Player Contract resulting from acceptance of any Tender for the Prior League Year pursuant to Section 2(a)(i) or (a)(ii) above, provided that the player played during the Prior League Year pursuant to the Tender, but shall not include (i) any Player Contract amount resulting from a renegotiation of an existing Player Contract between the time of the designation and any applicable later date or (ii) the amount of any term of a Player Contract renegotiated after the Monday of the tenth week of the regular season of the Prior League Year that provides for an unearned incentive to be treated as signing bonus.

(h) If a Franchise Player receives a Nonexclusive Franchise Player Tender pursuant to Section 2(a)(i) above, any provision in an Offer Sheet to such player waiving or limiting the New Club’s ability to designate the player as a Franchise Player or Transition Player in the future shall not be a Principal Term, and therefore need not be included in a contract formed with the Prior Club as a result of matching such an Offer Sheet (but shall be included in a contract formed with the New Club as a result of the Prior Club not matching such an Offer Sheet). This Subsection (h) shall not apply to a player who was designated as a Transition Player in lieu of designated as a Franchise Player, pursuant to Section 3(a) below, or to any other Transition Player.

(i) The definition of a "signing bonus" for this Article is the same as that in Article 13. The pro rata portion of such signing bonuses includes prorated amounts from prior Player Contracts; the Salary Cap acceleration rules for unamortized signing bonus amounts do not apply to the calculation of the Franchise and Transition Tenders.

(j) For purposes of calculating the minimum Tenders to Franchise and Transition players under this Article, if the present value of any deferred Paragraph 5 amount (as defined in Article 12, Section 6(a)(ii)) is at least $100,000 less than the initial Paragraph 5 amount (before being present valued), then the present value amount shall be used.

(k) Any Club designating a Franchise Player shall have until 4:00 p.m., New York time, on July 15 of the League Year (or, if July 15 falls on a Saturday or Sunday, the first Monday thereafter) for which the designation takes effect to sign the player to a multiyear contract or extension. After that date, the player may sign only a one-year Player Contract with his Prior Club for that season, and such Player Contract may not be extended until after the Club’s last regular season game of that League Year.


March 20th, 2013, 3:18 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 20 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware.