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 Rate the draft: 2010 
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Post Re: Rate the draft: 2010
Shotty wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
DJ-B wrote:
WJB, It looks like KDS was saying we overpaid because he was the #2 pick and the rookie scale wasnt in place. THen he suggests we should Move Suh while he still has value since we wont be able to resign him. Im pretty sure you are agreeing with him, but thought he was saying something else.


I understand what he's saying. My point is, he would make what he's making on the open market. I realize he would be making less under a current rookie deal with the wage scale in place, but in two years he's still going to command $15 million per year, which is what he's making now. He's just flat out not worth the salary he commands, period. I don't think you can say that our "cap problems" stem from a lack of a rookie wage scale, when the player in question would be making the same salary on the open market. Sure, we missed out on two "bargain" years of having Suh cheap, but he was inevitably going to cost too much anyhow, and the year he was drafted isn't the real issue.

Our cap problems are literally that we have too much concentrated talent in too few positions. It's not that Suh should be making less, it's that we shouldn't have a "superstar" at QB, WR, and DT, and I use the term "superstar" loosely. When you're talking about Suh and Stafford, these guys are NFL darlings more so than proven players, and are largely making a lot more than they deserve. Sure you pay for "potential," but right now we're paying for too much potential and not enough result. That's our issue.


No way will Suh "command" $15M per season. The market sets the price, and he can't "command" the market. As a DT with pass rush ability he'll likely be staring at around $8-$9M per season, tops. A far cry from $15M per season. If he wants to go to another team, so be it. Why would that be a problem? Because we aren't getting anything in return? First, that wouldn't exactly be true (comp pick) and second, why would you regret a "locker room cancer" leaving the team? I'd think you would want him gone by hook or by crook, regardless of compensation.

Fact is, Suh may not have turned out to be the off-field choir boy, on field Godzilla that many predicted him to become. However, that doesn't mean his selection was bad. As I recall, there were three other players that most folks thought the Lions should be considering: Gerald McCoy, Russell Okung and Eric Berry. Some mentioned Joe Haden as well, but that was few and far between. Okung has injury issues, Berry hasn't been that much of a playmaker, and Suh has been more productive than McCoy. Among the top rated players Suh has been among the best, if not THE best.

I am not a Suh lover, by any stretch. There are definitely things he can improve on, particulary off the field. But there are times he seems unblockable, and causes QBs to take their eyes off the receivers. And while some of his on-field penalties have been the result of his own foolishness, other times he's been penalized for absolutely no good reason (think Marion Barber 'horsecollar' by the hair and Jay Cutler hit in the back). He may have helped create his dirty player reputation, but officials aren't supposed to flag someone over that.


M2 - I think you misunderstand me...

IMO Suh and Stafford will both have to be signed for the $12-15M range (admittedly likely on the lower end of that range), because they're going to be signing an extension (if they stay, and I think Stafford will... I don't feel the same about Suh)... We're going to be "rolling guaranteed money" into Suh's deal, inflating the yearly rate of his contract by $2-3 million dollars per year. Right now even if he plays out next year under his ridiculously high salary, we're already going to have to roll $9M into his next deal.


I think we just suck it up and pay the dead money and let him go. I think he'll base his new deal solely on his rookie one. In other words, he'll be thinking "I made $12 million a year as a rookie, why would I sign for less?". Some team will break the bank for him, guaranteed.


I agree... I think he's going to be in the $10-12M range, without adding in the guaranteed bonus money we already owe him. That's why I think we're looking at $12-15 for him if we want him.

I think he's going to get a record deal, something along the lines of Haynesworth's, but I think Suh will actually see more "real money" from the deal. He's still young enough and productive enough to get it.


March 22nd, 2013, 3:03 pm
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Post Re: Rate the draft: 2010
I think he has to clean up his rep first. if he goes into free agency looking like he did at the end of last season he's not going to get anywhere NEAR 12mil IMO.
(by the end of last season I mean 2011)

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March 22nd, 2013, 4:00 pm
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Post Re: Rate the draft: 2010
regularjoe12 wrote:
I think he has to clean up his rep first. if he goes into free agency looking like he did at the end of last season he's not going to get anywhere NEAR 12mil IMO.
(by the end of last season I mean 2011)


He's still jocked by most of the league, the NFL, and society. Those players always come with a premium. I only see his worth falling if he has a horrible season, or if he does something REALLY stupid.

That said, the guy seems to have a golden fleece around him, shielding him from scrutiny. He gets in a car crash with a hooker in the car, probably drunk, and comes out of it clean.... That's crazy...


March 22nd, 2013, 4:02 pm
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Post Re: Rate the draft: 2010
Quote:
That said, the guy seems to have a golden fleece around him, shielding him from scrutiny. He gets in a car crash with a hooker in the car, probably drunk, and comes out of it clean.... That's crazy
how do you know she's a hooker?

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March 22nd, 2013, 4:25 pm
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Post Re: Rate the draft: 2010
Killwill25 wrote:
Quote:
That said, the guy seems to have a golden fleece around him, shielding him from scrutiny. He gets in a car crash with a hooker in the car, probably drunk, and comes out of it clean.... That's crazy
how do you know she's a hooker?


He didn't know her name, and couldn't tell the police where or how he met her. I believe it was TMZ or some "gossip" show that said she was rumored to be a prostitute.


March 22nd, 2013, 5:12 pm
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Post Re: Rate the draft: 2010
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KDS, I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that. Suh is going to command $15ish million per year AFTER his rookie deal (which is about what he's making now).


What team is going to pay $15 million for a DT? It seems like he won't be able to command much more than what the 2nd highest bidder is offering.


March 24th, 2013, 11:54 pm
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Post Re: Rate the draft: 2010
Growler wrote:
Quote:
KDS, I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that. Suh is going to command $15ish million per year AFTER his rookie deal (which is about what he's making now).


What team is going to pay $15 million for a DT? It seems like he won't be able to command much more than what the 2nd highest bidder is offering.



Read the whole thread.


March 25th, 2013, 2:59 am
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Post Re: Rate the draft: 2010
MLive wrote:
Detroit Lions facing decision on Ndamukong Suh next offseason

The Detroit Lions face a major decision next offseason: Either work out a contract extension for Ndamukong Suh or let the All-Pro defensive tackle hit free agency in 2015.

The Lions locked themselves into the situation when they asked Suh to restructure his contract this offseason. By reducing his $12.15 million salary to $630,000 in 2013, the Lions pushed back $7.8 million in cap hits to 2014 and 2015.

Suh's cap number for 2014 is now scheduled to be $21.41 million. In 2015, a voidable year in the contract, the Lions are on the hook for a $9.74 million cap hit whether Suh is on the roster or not.

Trading Suh, even next offseason, is essentially out of the question. His $11.55 million base salary (with the potential of $1.8 million in escalators) would be nearly impossible to move on its own, but the $19.48 million in dead money solidifies the case against a potential transaction.

Using the franchise tag in 2015 is also off the table. The 120 percent raise awarded by the designation would require an unreasonable $25.7 million, one-year contract.

Lions general manager Martin Mayhew has already stated there are no plans to work out an extension with Suh this offseason. The team's current priority is getting a long-term deal done with franchise quarterback Matthew Stafford.

Mayhew declined to comment on whether he has talked to Suh about his long-term future with the organization, but Suh's agent, Rosie Barnes, told the team's official website his client welcomes working out a contract to stay in Detroit.

"He's open to that," Barnes said. "He likes it in Detroit. He wants to be the one to help bring a Super Bowl to Detroit. He wants to be here when they win the Super Bowl."

If the Lions do opt to re-sign Suh, the final contract value should be interesting. The annual salary from his rookie contract paid him $12 million per year. The only other defensive tackle making that much annually is fellow 2010 first-round draft pick Gerald McCoy.

Suh and McCoy's deals average more than $2 million per season more than the next highest paid defensive tackle, Baltimore's Haloti Ngata, who signed a five-year extension with the Ravens in 2011. Suh's average salary is $3.55 million more than the 2013 franchise tag for the position.

It's clear Suh and McCoy, whose contract also expires after the 2014 season, will be setting the market for defensive tackles for years to come.

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March 25th, 2013, 12:24 pm
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Post Re: Rate the draft: 2010
FootballPhreak wrote:
At this point, after re-structuring this season I think it is all but guaranteed Suh will be signing an extension next year, because there is no way the Lions will be able to afford him if they trade/cut/or ride the contract after re-structuring yet again.


Welcome back to Lionbacker Phreak. I agree.

All we have to do is maintain until the new TV revenue kicks in. In the mean time, player salaries are falling in this flat cap period.

The FA market was flooded this year because of 2 reasons. Teams that are cap strapped cutting players they can't afford, and players that didn't find FA to be "all that" last year, so they only signed a 1 year deal, last year, in hopes that this year would be better. Only a few players landed a huge payday this year. The rest settled for crumbs. And it will only get more saturated about 2 minutes after the draft is completed next month when teams dump more fat contracts because they just drafted the replacement.

All the players that signed 1 year deals this last week, are setting next year up to be even more saturated than this year.


March 26th, 2013, 9:52 am
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Post Re: Rate the draft: 2010
wjb21ndtown wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
DJ-B wrote:
WJB, It looks like KDS was saying we overpaid because he was the #2 pick and the rookie scale wasnt in place. THen he suggests we should Move Suh while he still has value since we wont be able to resign him. Im pretty sure you are agreeing with him, but thought he was saying something else.


I understand what he's saying. My point is, he would make what he's making on the open market. I realize he would be making less under a current rookie deal with the wage scale in place, but in two years he's still going to command $15 million per year, which is what he's making now. He's just flat out not worth the salary he commands, period. I don't think you can say that our "cap problems" stem from a lack of a rookie wage scale, when the player in question would be making the same salary on the open market. Sure, we missed out on two "bargain" years of having Suh cheap, but he was inevitably going to cost too much anyhow, and the year he was drafted isn't the real issue.

Our cap problems are literally that we have too much concentrated talent in too few positions. It's not that Suh should be making less, it's that we shouldn't have a "superstar" at QB, WR, and DT, and I use the term "superstar" loosely. When you're talking about Suh and Stafford, these guys are NFL darlings more so than proven players, and are largely making a lot more than they deserve. Sure you pay for "potential," but right now we're paying for too much potential and not enough result. That's our issue.


No way will Suh "command" $15M per season. The market sets the price, and he can't "command" the market. As a DT with pass rush ability he'll likely be staring at around $8-$9M per season, tops. A far cry from $15M per season. If he wants to go to another team, so be it. Why would that be a problem? Because we aren't getting anything in return? First, that wouldn't exactly be true (comp pick) and second, why would you regret a "locker room cancer" leaving the team? I'd think you would want him gone by hook or by crook, regardless of compensation.

Fact is, Suh may not have turned out to be the off-field choir boy, on field Godzilla that many predicted him to become. However, that doesn't mean his selection was bad. As I recall, there were three other players that most folks thought the Lions should be considering: Gerald McCoy, Russell Okung and Eric Berry. Some mentioned Joe Haden as well, but that was few and far between. Okung has injury issues, Berry hasn't been that much of a playmaker, and Suh has been more productive than McCoy. Among the top rated players Suh has been among the best, if not THE best.

I am not a Suh lover, by any stretch. There are definitely things he can improve on, particulary off the field. But there are times he seems unblockable, and causes QBs to take their eyes off the receivers. And while some of his on-field penalties have been the result of his own foolishness, other times he's been penalized for absolutely no good reason (think Marion Barber 'horsecollar' by the hair and Jay Cutler hit in the back). He may have helped create his dirty player reputation, but officials aren't supposed to flag someone over that.


M2 - I think you misunderstand me...

IMO Suh and Stafford will both have to be signed for the $12-15M range (admittedly likely on the lower end of that range), because they're going to be signing an extension (if they stay, and I think Stafford will... I don't feel the same about Suh)... We're going to be "rolling guaranteed money" into Suh's deal, inflating the yearly rate of his contract by $2-3 million dollars per year. Right now even if he plays out next year under his ridiculously high salary, we're already going to have to roll $9M into his next deal.


If we get the spike in new TV revenue that many, ( I admit that not all), are predicting we will get, then we can absorb all the guaranteed money in Suh's deal into a 1 year lump sum Roster bonus and be done with it after the first year of his new deal. This would make the rest of his new contract quite cap friendly.


March 26th, 2013, 9:59 am
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Post Re: Rate the draft: 2010
BillySims wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
DJ-B wrote:
WJB, It looks like KDS was saying we overpaid because he was the #2 pick and the rookie scale wasnt in place. THen he suggests we should Move Suh while he still has value since we wont be able to resign him. Im pretty sure you are agreeing with him, but thought he was saying something else.


I understand what he's saying. My point is, he would make what he's making on the open market. I realize he would be making less under a current rookie deal with the wage scale in place, but in two years he's still going to command $15 million per year, which is what he's making now. He's just flat out not worth the salary he commands, period. I don't think you can say that our "cap problems" stem from a lack of a rookie wage scale, when the player in question would be making the same salary on the open market. Sure, we missed out on two "bargain" years of having Suh cheap, but he was inevitably going to cost too much anyhow, and the year he was drafted isn't the real issue.

Our cap problems are literally that we have too much concentrated talent in too few positions. It's not that Suh should be making less, it's that we shouldn't have a "superstar" at QB, WR, and DT, and I use the term "superstar" loosely. When you're talking about Suh and Stafford, these guys are NFL darlings more so than proven players, and are largely making a lot more than they deserve. Sure you pay for "potential," but right now we're paying for too much potential and not enough result. That's our issue.


No way will Suh "command" $15M per season. The market sets the price, and he can't "command" the market. As a DT with pass rush ability he'll likely be staring at around $8-$9M per season, tops. A far cry from $15M per season. If he wants to go to another team, so be it. Why would that be a problem? Because we aren't getting anything in return? First, that wouldn't exactly be true (comp pick) and second, why would you regret a "locker room cancer" leaving the team? I'd think you would want him gone by hook or by crook, regardless of compensation.

Fact is, Suh may not have turned out to be the off-field choir boy, on field Godzilla that many predicted him to become. However, that doesn't mean his selection was bad. As I recall, there were three other players that most folks thought the Lions should be considering: Gerald McCoy, Russell Okung and Eric Berry. Some mentioned Joe Haden as well, but that was few and far between. Okung has injury issues, Berry hasn't been that much of a playmaker, and Suh has been more productive than McCoy. Among the top rated players Suh has been among the best, if not THE best.

I am not a Suh lover, by any stretch. There are definitely things he can improve on, particulary off the field. But there are times he seems unblockable, and causes QBs to take their eyes off the receivers. And while some of his on-field penalties have been the result of his own foolishness, other times he's been penalized for absolutely no good reason (think Marion Barber 'horsecollar' by the hair and Jay Cutler hit in the back). He may have helped create his dirty player reputation, but officials aren't supposed to flag someone over that.


M2 - I think you misunderstand me...

IMO Suh and Stafford will both have to be signed for the $12-15M range (admittedly likely on the lower end of that range), because they're going to be signing an extension (if they stay, and I think Stafford will... I don't feel the same about Suh)... We're going to be "rolling guaranteed money" into Suh's deal, inflating the yearly rate of his contract by $2-3 million dollars per year. Right now even if he plays out next year under his ridiculously high salary, we're already going to have to roll $9M into his next deal.


If we get the spike in new TV revenue that many, ( I admit that not all), are predicting we will get, then we can absorb all the guaranteed money in Suh's deal into a 1 year lump sum Roster bonus and be done with it after the first year of his new deal. This would make the rest of his new contract quite cap friendly.


$20M in Stafford, and $30M in Suh... We're going to "absorb" $50M, and do it in a manner that doesn't leave us with a competitive disadvantage? (Remember, other teams will have this money to SPEND, not "absorb)

This "free" TV money contract idea that you've been screaming about simply doesn't work. While we're in the bottom digging and dying other teams will be out there spending and flying... It's more of the same. We're screwing ourselves with all of these restructures.


March 26th, 2013, 10:17 am
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Post Re: Rate the draft: 2010
Suh - He was great his rookie year and went through a sophomore slump most likely because he had offseason surgery and not proper offseason because of the lockout. Started off slow in year 3 but started to come on when Nick Fairly started to get playing time still the best player the LIons could have drafted at #2.

Best - The Lions rolled the dice on Best and lost. Sometimes trying to hit a home run isn't as important as getting on base. The Lions struck out here.

Spievey - Awful pick the Lions waited to long to address the secondary and had to settle for Spievey who doesn't seem suited for CB or S. I expect him to be cut this season.

Fox - this guy has either been injured or not playing had to get an evaluation on him still around so that's something. I think.

Young - A backup player who the Lions just over paid to return. Decent value for round 7.

Toone - there were better players who went on drafted if you are going to draft a WR in round 7 at least draft one with return skills.

the LIons really only got one player out of this draft Suh and couple backup in Fox and Young. The Best and Spievey picks really hurt this team's development.

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March 30th, 2013, 10:33 am
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