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 A Punter in the 5th. 
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Post Re: A Punter in the 5th.
wjb21ndtown wrote:
rao wrote:
I don't disagree with your other points, but if your depth at 5 different positions is killing your special teams coverage wouldn't the best course of action be to get a guy that can kick it out the end zone and get more hang time to get more fair catches?


No, it's tackling that is our issue. We need gunners and a special team ace that darts through blockers and makes the tackle.


Well I would say it's smarter to take one guy that can reduce the need to tackle over trying to find multiple players all at once to fix the problem.


May 2nd, 2013, 7:21 pm
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Post Re: A Punter in the 5th.
rao wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
rao wrote:
I don't disagree with your other points, but if your depth at 5 different positions is killing your special teams coverage wouldn't the best course of action be to get a guy that can kick it out the end zone and get more hang time to get more fair catches?


No, it's tackling that is our issue. We need gunners and a special team ace that darts through blockers and makes the tackle.


Well I would say it's smarter to take one guy that can reduce the need to tackle over trying to find multiple players all at once to fix the problem.


I disagree, especially when the guys that we passed on were 2nd to 3rd round talents (Stills and Rambo) that could have and would have contributed elsewhere. In the 5th there's virtually no risk there. Both players were worth it, and both would have contributed more than Martin to making this a better team. There were what, 9 UDFA punters? One of them could have filled the role more so than anyone left in the draft could make up for the drop off in talent at the two aforementioned respective positions.


May 2nd, 2013, 7:33 pm
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Post Re: A Punter in the 5th.
I could see the gamble on Rambo but Stills is a scary combo of Young and Burleson. Stills can't beat a jam like Young and rounds off his routes while also having a bad knack of pushing off to get separation like Burleson. On top of all that he runs his mouth a lot on the field. The bottom line is punter wasn't the answer unless this guy is as good as Lechler or even Feagles.


May 2nd, 2013, 8:47 pm
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Post Re: A Punter in the 5th.
sweetd20 wrote:
I could see the gamble on Rambo but Stills is a scary combo of Young and Burleson. Stills can't beat a jam like Young and rounds off his routes while also having a bad knack of pushing off to get separation like Burleson. On top of all that he runs his mouth a lot on the field. The bottom line is punter wasn't the answer unless this guy is as good as Lechler or even Feagles.


I agree with you. Like I've said before, I don't think the Vikings blew it taking Locke. I would have understood if it was a highly ranked punter like Locke, and I'm not saying our guy sucks, but he's still a DII or DIA or w/e App State is.

I don't care who we took, my point is we passed on some good talent at WR/RB and S to draft this guy. That's what I have an issue with. If we would have drafted him in the 7th, so be it.

I would have liked to have seen any combination of:
Rambo
Stills
Ellington
Zac Drysler

Taken before we drafted a punter. Not until all of those guys were off of the board should we have phoned in the punter.


May 2nd, 2013, 9:12 pm
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Post Re: A Punter in the 5th.
wjb21ndtown wrote:
sweetd20 wrote:
I could see the gamble on Rambo but Stills is a scary combo of Young and Burleson. Stills can't beat a jam like Young and rounds off his routes while also having a bad knack of pushing off to get separation like Burleson. On top of all that he runs his mouth a lot on the field. The bottom line is punter wasn't the answer unless this guy is as good as Lechler or even Feagles.


I agree with you. Like I've said before, I don't think the Vikings blew it taking Locke. I would have understood if it was a highly ranked punter like Locke, and I'm not saying our guy sucks, but he's still a DII or DIA or w/e App State is.

I don't care who we took, my point is we passed on some good talent at WR/RB and S to draft this guy. That's what I have an issue with. If we would have drafted him in the 7th, so be it.

I would have liked to have seen any combination of:
Rambo
Stills
Ellington
Zac Drysler

Taken before we drafted a punter. Not until all of those guys were off of the board should we have phoned in the punter.


Stills: "He's fighting a reputation as a cocky, wild troublemaker that may have been part of his drop to the fifth round." (http://www.neworleansprofootball.com/20 ... ahoma.html)

Rambo: "Off-field troubles are a problem: suspended for the first game of his junior season, and served another suspension to begin his senior year due to failed drug tests, both from supposed inadvertent ingestion of marijuana."
http://www.neworleansprofootball.com/20 ... ahoma.html


Where can we get us some of that sweet action?

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May 3rd, 2013, 9:38 am
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Post Re: A Punter in the 5th.
thelomasbrowns wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
sweetd20 wrote:
I could see the gamble on Rambo but Stills is a scary combo of Young and Burleson. Stills can't beat a jam like Young and rounds off his routes while also having a bad knack of pushing off to get separation like Burleson. On top of all that he runs his mouth a lot on the field. The bottom line is punter wasn't the answer unless this guy is as good as Lechler or even Feagles.


I agree with you. Like I've said before, I don't think the Vikings blew it taking Locke. I would have understood if it was a highly ranked punter like Locke, and I'm not saying our guy sucks, but he's still a DII or DIA or w/e App State is.

I don't care who we took, my point is we passed on some good talent at WR/RB and S to draft this guy. That's what I have an issue with. If we would have drafted him in the 7th, so be it.

I would have liked to have seen any combination of:
Rambo
Stills
Ellington
Zac Drysler

Taken before we drafted a punter. Not until all of those guys were off of the board should we have phoned in the punter.


Stills: "He's fighting a reputation as a cocky, wild troublemaker that may have been part of his drop to the fifth round." (http://www.neworleansprofootball.com/20 ... ahoma.html)

Rambo: "Off-field troubles are a problem: suspended for the first game of his junior season, and served another suspension to begin his senior year due to failed drug tests, both from supposed inadvertent ingestion of marijuana."
http://www.neworleansprofootball.com/20 ... ahoma.html


Where can we get us some of that sweet action?


It's a 5th round pick. Who has a better season, and first three years in the NFL? Stills, or Fuller? Who would help the team more going forward without any character risks? Rambo, or Riddick, because that's what it comes down to. We could have taken Martin later in the draft.

And again, you ignore two other prospects on the board. :roll:


May 3rd, 2013, 12:06 pm
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Post Re: A Punter in the 5th.
wjb21ndtown wrote:
I disagree, especially when the guys that we passed on were 2nd to 3rd round talents (Stills and Rambo) that could have and would have contributed elsewhere. In the 5th there's virtually no risk there. Both players were worth it, and both would have contributed more than Martin to making this a better team. There were what, 9 UDFA punters? One of them could have filled the role more so than anyone left in the draft could make up for the drop off in talent at the two aforementioned respective positions.


I'm sorry, but I never saw Stills or Rambo listed as 2nd round talents, or even 3rd round talents. Most mocks I saw had them coming off the board in the fourth round at the earliest. And given that these guys both play positions that can't be pigeonholed into a specific style or alignment (like a 34 defense) then you have to wonder why all 32 teams passed on them through five complete rounds of picks.

Perhaps because they aren't as talented as you or a couple analysts think?

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May 3rd, 2013, 12:56 pm
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Post Re: A Punter in the 5th.
m2karateman wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
I disagree, especially when the guys that we passed on were 2nd to 3rd round talents (Stills and Rambo) that could have and would have contributed elsewhere. In the 5th there's virtually no risk there. Both players were worth it, and both would have contributed more than Martin to making this a better team. There were what, 9 UDFA punters? One of them could have filled the role more so than anyone left in the draft could make up for the drop off in talent at the two aforementioned respective positions.


I'm sorry, but I never saw Stills or Rambo listed as 2nd round talents, or even 3rd round talents. Most mocks I saw had them coming off the board in the fourth round at the earliest. And given that these guys both play positions that can't be pigeonholed into a specific style or alignment (like a 34 defense) then you have to wonder why all 32 teams passed on them through five complete rounds of picks.

Perhaps because they aren't as talented as you or a couple analysts think?


Stills
Quote:
BOTTOM LINE While Stills isn't the biggest or the fastest, he has a knack for finding ways to get open. He has the ability to track the football, and make some extremely difficult catches. Stills will likely be selected around the third round.


Rambo
Quote:
BOTTOM LINE Possesses the size, athletic skill set, and playmaking ability to become a starter at the next level. However, multiple suspensions for violating team rules might hurt his draft stock.


Both from NFL.com, I could find loads more that have them as 2nd and 3rd round "talent" that goes in the 3rd or 4th rounds due to character concerns.


May 3rd, 2013, 1:04 pm
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Post Re: A Punter in the 5th.
Re: Taking a Punter in the 5th. I agree we Could have and Should have waited. He would have been around in the 6th, 7th or maybe even UDFA. If not we could have brought in an UDFA, a Few Vets and let them compete against KICKALICIOUS.. (lol)

Re: Lions Kicking team Woes.. Specifically Punting. I have to disagree that the Punting/Kickoffs wasn't 50% or more of the problem, in addition to the fact that plugging 1 hole is much easier than improving depth at 4+ Positions.

Here's some Cold Hard Facts from 2012:

KICKOFFS
Kickoffs Per Game: 5.4 - Rank: 12th
Kickoffs for Touchbacks: 34.5 % - Rank: 27th

PUNTS
Punts Per Game: 4.8 - Rank: 18th
# Punts: 67 - Rank: 24th
% Punt w/Return: 42 - Rank: 11th
% Fair Catches: 34 (no rank stat)
% Inside the 20: 31% - Rank 25th
# Of Touchbacks: 1 - Rank: 32nd
Gross Yards Per Punt: 41.4 - Rank: 32nd
Net Yard Per Punt: 36.9 yds - Rank: 31st
Longest Punt: 58 yds - Rank: 33rd
Avg Ret Yards: 8.6 - Rank 11th


Its pretty obvious that our Inability to Kick Punts Deep had an even bigger impact than our weak special teams coverage. While the Shorter Kicks often helps with shorter returns, our inability to get Touchbacks or inside the 20 is ridiculous and we didn't even make up for the distance with hangtime. Harris was the Worst punter in the league last year, while our coverage unites were somewhere in the 22-28 range. Still bad, but 1 could argue that Punter was 1 of the most important (and easiest) fixes we could have made in the offseason. Turn that disadvantage into not just "OK" but into a Kicking advantage, and we could have won multiple extra games last year.


May 3rd, 2013, 4:21 pm
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Post Re: A Punter in the 5th.
DJ-B wrote:
Re: Taking a Punter in the 5th. I agree we Could have and Should have waited. He would have been around in the 6th, 7th or maybe even UDFA. If not we could have brought in an UDFA, a Few Vets and let them compete against KICKALICIOUS.. (lol)

Re: Lions Kicking team Woes.. Specifically Punting. I have to disagree that the Punting/Kickoffs wasn't 50% or more of the problem, in addition to the fact that plugging 1 hole is much easier than improving depth at 4+ Positions.

Here's some Cold Hard Facts from 2012:

KICKOFFS
Kickoffs Per Game: 5.4 - Rank: 12th
Kickoffs for Touchbacks: 34.5 % - Rank: 27th

PUNTS
Punts Per Game: 4.8 - Rank: 18th
# Punts: 67 - Rank: 24th
% Punt w/Return: 42 - Rank: 11th
% Fair Catches: 34 (no rank stat)
% Inside the 20: 31% - Rank 25th
# Of Touchbacks: 1 - Rank: 32nd
Gross Yards Per Punt: 41.4 - Rank: 32nd
Net Yard Per Punt: 36.9 yds - Rank: 31st
Longest Punt: 58 yds - Rank: 33rd
Avg Ret Yards: 8.6 - Rank 11th


Its pretty obvious that our Inability to Kick Punts Deep had an even bigger impact than our weak special teams coverage. While the Shorter Kicks often helps with shorter returns, our inability to get Touchbacks or inside the 20 is ridiculous and we didn't even make up for the distance with hangtime. Harris was the Worst punter in the league last year, while our coverage unites were somewhere in the 22-28 range. Still bad, but 1 could argue that Punter was 1 of the most important (and easiest) fixes we could have made in the offseason. Turn that disadvantage into not just "OK" but into a Kicking advantage, and we could have won multiple extra games last year.


Wait a minute... Number of touchbacks? Ranked 32 at 1... THAT'S A GOOD THING. You generally don't want to have a touchback. If you have a touchback it means your punter blew it.

Further, this area could have and would have been corrected with a UDFA or THE NEW PUNTER WE ALREADY SIGNED.

We weren't going into this season with our punter from last season regardless.

Re: Kickoffs... Again, Hanson isn't coming back... It's going to be different this year regardless. And I never said we shouldn't have taken a punter, EVER. I said we should have addressed other issues BEFORE we took a punter. Why don't you understand that?


May 3rd, 2013, 5:01 pm
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Post Re: A Punter in the 5th.
1) I know you are agitated by feeling like you are arguing about this same issue with everyone in this thread, but my very 1st comment re: not using a 5th round pick on a punter agreed with the last statement you made and I was very clear about that.

2) The Punter we brought in was not in football for a reason. Supposedly he was booming his punts however, but obv despite signing him ot a No Signing bonus contract, they don't have faith hes anything more than camp fodder.

3) Including Kickoff statistics Only because Specifically this Punter can Also Boom Kickoffs, and we had bad kickoffs as well as Punting last year, so he kills 2 birds with 1 stone.

4) Normally a low # of touchbacks is good, but only if you have a high % of kicks down inside the 20. Our kicker had a weak leg (obv based on the stats and eye test). We had a low % of kicks downed inside 20. (7th worst in league). Knowing both of those things, having a High Number of touchbacks would be better than Low, because it means the opponents Starting position was the 20 or worse. Instead, 45 of 67 punts last year were Beyond the 20 yd line. Now that could be an indictment of WHERE we are Punting from on the field, but is more likely a symptom of having the lowest Gross Punt avg (weakest power leg). I looked for an Averages Field position after Punt stat but couldn't find it anywhere.

5) Reiterating Pt 1 - I don't think we should have taken the punter in the 5th or even the 6th. I was fine with the UDFA or Clingan. But The statistics clearly point out what the Eye test confirmed, we had the worst Punter in the league last year, and it is easier to fix that 1 position than 4-5 depth positions. The Coverage units were terrible early on, and 1 of the better units after the 2 fiasco weeks, which is why they ranked 11th for Yds/return. Fixing the Punt situation was arguably a top 3 priority in the offseason (Behind OT & DE, and right up there with WR2, CB2 & S2). They chose a good kicked to fix both that and weak Kickoffs, but I agree the 5th rd was a mistake.


May 3rd, 2013, 5:42 pm
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Post Re: A Punter in the 5th.
DJ-B wrote:
1) I know you are agitated by feeling like you are arguing about this same issue with everyone in this thread, but my very 1st comment re: not using a 5th round pick on a punter agreed with the last statement you made and I was very clear about that.

2) The Punter we brought in was not in football for a reason. Supposedly he was booming his punts however, but obv despite signing him ot a No Signing bonus contract, they don't have faith hes anything more than camp fodder.

3) Including Kickoff statistics Only because Specifically this Punter can Also Boom Kickoffs, and we had bad kickoffs as well as Punting last year, so he kills 2 birds with 1 stone.

4) Normally a low # of touchbacks is good, but only if you have a high % of kicks down inside the 20. Our kicker had a weak leg (obv based on the stats and eye test). We had a low % of kicks downed inside 20. (7th worst in league). Knowing both of those things, having a High Number of touchbacks would be better than Low, because it means the opponents Starting position was the 20 or worse. Instead, 45 of 67 punts last year were Beyond the 20 yd line. Now that could be an indictment of WHERE we are Punting from on the field, but is more likely a symptom of having the lowest Gross Punt avg (weakest power leg). I looked for an Averages Field position after Punt stat but couldn't find it anywhere.

5) Reiterating Pt 1 - I don't think we should have taken the punter in the 5th or even the 6th. I was fine with the UDFA or Clingan. But The statistics clearly point out what the Eye test confirmed, we had the worst Punter in the league last year, and it is easier to fix that 1 position than 4-5 depth positions. The Coverage units were terrible early on, and 1 of the better units after the 2 fiasco weeks, which is why they ranked 11th for Yds/return. Fixing the Punt situation was arguably a top 3 priority in the offseason (Behind OT & DE, and right up there with WR2, CB2 & S2). They chose a good kicked to fix both that and weak Kickoffs, but I agree the 5th rd was a mistake.


Who was our punter last year? Was it Nick Harris again? I've hated him since he was first brought in here, everyone knows that, and everyone USED to jock the guy and talk about how "great" he was, and he was "named the Lions special teams MVP," all the while, I thought he sucked, lacked accuracy, and had no leg power. I'm not opposed to replacing Nick Harris.

What I am opposed to is the contention that we shouldn't have drafted the four players that I listed BEFORE drafting a punter. Like I said, I'm not opposed to drafting a punter, I wouldn't have been mad if we had landed Locke in the 5th, but I AM opposed to drafting Martin in the 5th, with other big names on the board.

It's not that "replacing one guy is easier than adding depth at four other positions" as has been posted. The two aren't mutually exclusive. We could have added quality depth at at least THREE of those positions AND drafted a punter, and we failed miserably to do so.


May 3rd, 2013, 5:51 pm
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Post Re: A Punter in the 5th.
Agreed, I was just pointing out that our Punter was the 32nd best punter and a must replace (Yes it was Harris). When I was 1 of the 2 ppl in Chat during rounds 5-7, every time our picks came up I spammed the same list. Chase Thomas (OLB Stanford), Rambo, DaRick Rogers, Xavier Nixon, Everett Dawkins & Kevin Reddick, so I wasn't all that excited about any of the 5th+ Picks other than Fuller and Williams.


May 3rd, 2013, 7:08 pm
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Post Re: A Punter in the 5th.
DJ-B wrote:
Agreed, I was just pointing out that our Punter was the 32nd best punter and a must replace (Yes it was Harris). When I was 1 of the 2 ppl in Chat during rounds 5-7, every time our picks came up I spammed the same list. Chase Thomas (OLB Stanford), Rambo, DaRick Rogers, Xavier Nixon, Everett Dawkins & Kevin Reddick, so I wasn't all that excited about any of the 5th+ Picks other than Fuller and Williams.


I've hated Harris for years. People on here have been saying that I can't have it both ways (complain about Harris and complain about Martin), but it's where we took Martin, and who we left on the board that I have a problem with. I'm all for replacing Harris.


May 3rd, 2013, 7:16 pm
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Post Re: A Punter in the 5th.
wjb21ndtown wrote:
DJ-B wrote:
Agreed, I was just pointing out that our Punter was the 32nd best punter and a must replace (Yes it was Harris). When I was 1 of the 2 ppl in Chat during rounds 5-7, every time our picks came up I spammed the same list. Chase Thomas (OLB Stanford), Rambo, DaRick Rogers, Xavier Nixon, Everett Dawkins & Kevin Reddick, so I wasn't all that excited about any of the 5th+ Picks other than Fuller and Williams.


I've hated Harris for years. People on here have been saying that I can't have it both ways (complain about Harris and complain about Martin), but it's where we took Martin, and who we left on the board that I have a problem with. I'm all for replacing Harris.


Then let me ask this. Would Rambo start for us? No. Would Stills? No. Will Martin? Yes. Therefore, we got a starter out of the late fifth round. Punter or not, the guy will have a bigger impact on our teams performance this season than Rambo or Stills would have.

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May 4th, 2013, 9:15 pm
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