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 2nd Round Pick @ #36 - Darius Slay CB MSST 
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Post Re: 2nd Round Pick @ #36 - Darius Slay CB MSST
The Legend wrote:
i think its more of a timing issue bc they didnt truly allow the rest option to play out. his tear may have been small and likely to heal with rest but the downside of taking that approach is that the MRI is often inaccurate identifying the size of the tear and his pain lingers and ultimately requires surgery at a later date closer to the season. the team would rather not take that risk and have the player miss the rookie minicamp in may rather than miss training camp time. a professional athlete gets treated difft than someone with a desk job. slay's agent played this well bc slay's stock would likely have been lower if he had surgery before the draft.


If you have a minor meniscus injury in the off season, it is far better to scope the injury, if for no other reason then to put eyes on it and ensure it is very minor. MRI's are nice, but actual viewing is still better. On the other hand, during the season or maybe preseason, if you have a very minor meniscus injury, 'expect' it to heal well.

BTW: I was just at a Sports Medicine conference yesterday and watched a video of an ACL reconstruction via hamstring graft. After watching how the hamstrings are so badly traumatized to get a donor site graft, I m surprised these injuries every play football again. That was brutal.

Slay's agent played this well? There was no other way to play it. If your athlete can run, cut, jump at an elite level without any signs of injury or dysfunction, do not have surgery. On the other hand, if your athlete is not at an elite level, needing or having surgery is a good excuse for underperforming. (Not that any sports agent would ever use an injury as an excuse for their player. :-$ )

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May 11th, 2013, 9:36 am
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Post Re: 2nd Round Pick @ #36 - Darius Slay CB MSST
TruckinMack wrote:
The Legend wrote:
i think its more of a timing issue bc they didnt truly allow the rest option to play out. his tear may have been small and likely to heal with rest but the downside of taking that approach is that the MRI is often inaccurate identifying the size of the tear and his pain lingers and ultimately requires surgery at a later date closer to the season. the team would rather not take that risk and have the player miss the rookie minicamp in may rather than miss training camp time. a professional athlete gets treated difft than someone with a desk job. slay's agent played this well bc slay's stock would likely have been lower if he had surgery before the draft.


If you have a minor meniscus injury in the off season, it is far better to scope the injury, if for no other reason then to put eyes on it and ensure it is very minor. MRI's are nice, but actual viewing is still better. On the other hand, during the season or maybe preseason, if you have a very minor meniscus injury, 'expect' it to heal well.

BTW: I was just at a Sports Medicine conference yesterday and watched a video of an ACL reconstruction via hamstring graft. After watching how the hamstrings are so badly traumatized to get a donor site graft, I m surprised these injuries every play football again. That was brutal.

Slay's agent played this well? There was no other way to play it. If your athlete can run, cut, jump at an elite level without any signs of injury or dysfunction, do not have surgery. On the other hand, if your athlete is not at an elite level, needing or having surgery is a good excuse for underperforming. (Not that any sports agent would ever use an injury as an excuse for their player. :-$ )


Elite athletes generally get a BTB (Bone Tendon Bone - patella tendon with tibial tubercle and inf pole of patella). Hamstrings are a good option for recreational type athlete (less painful recovery).


May 12th, 2013, 10:08 pm
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Post Re: 2nd Round Pick @ #36 - Darius Slay CB MSST
The Legend wrote:
Elite athletes generally get a BTB (Bone Tendon Bone - patella tendon with tibial tubercle and inf pole of patella). Hamstrings are a good option for recreational type athlete (less painful recovery).

I agree completely, and did not mean to imply otherwise. I've been told that Dr. Shelbourne (who I believe pioneered the B-T-B technique) prefers to use a patellar tendon donation site from the patient's uninjured knee. That way one knee recovers from an ACL reconstruct while the other recovers from a surgically 'torn' (and repaired) patellar tendon. It's an interesting theory. The surgeons in Lansing who do B-T-B surgeries use grafts from the injured side.

The perk of using a patellar tendon, over a hamstring, is that when the patellar tendon is harvested there is a bone chip already attached at both ends of the tendon. The surgeon then drills a hole into the femur and tibia and inserts each bone chip into the hole, screws it into place, and about 8 weeks later the bone to bone grafts are fully healed. Very clever. There are reasons to go with a hamstring graft, but the recovery is significantly longer as you have to wait for the tendon (without a bone chip) to knit to the bone it is surgically attached.

Sorry to hijack a thread on meniscal repair with discussion of an ACL repair.

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01/21/14:Blueskies may emote like a 14 year old girl, but he had the stones to take a bet no other Lionbacker would take. For that he has my total admiration.

Blueskies is my hero. I worship the ground he walks on.


May 13th, 2013, 7:49 pm
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Post Re: 2nd Round Pick @ #36 - Darius Slay CB MSST
TruckinMack wrote:
The Legend wrote:
Elite athletes generally get a BTB (Bone Tendon Bone - patella tendon with tibial tubercle and inf pole of patella). Hamstrings are a good option for recreational type athlete (less painful recovery).

I agree completely, and did not mean to imply otherwise. I've been told that Dr. Shelbourne (who I believe pioneered the B-T-B technique) prefers to use a patellar tendon donation site from the patient's uninjured knee. That way one knee recovers from an ACL reconstruct while the other recovers from a surgically 'torn' (and repaired) patellar tendon. It's an interesting theory. The surgeons in Lansing who do B-T-B surgeries use grafts from the injured side.

The perk of using a patellar tendon, over a hamstring, is that when the patellar tendon is harvested there is a bone chip already attached at both ends of the tendon. The surgeon then drills a hole into the femur and tibia and inserts each bone chip into the hole, screws it into place, and about 8 weeks later the bone to bone grafts are fully healed. Very clever. There are reasons to go with a hamstring graft, but the recovery is significantly longer as you have to wait for the tendon (without a bone chip) to knit to the bone it is surgically attached.

Sorry to hijack a thread on meniscal repair with discussion of an ACL repair.


Hijack away... I love reading your posts regarding medical injuries. You tend to be right more often than the "experts" that give information to the Lions (I'm not saying you're more right than the team doctors, but you at least seem more informed than the people the release information to the media/Lions organization).


May 14th, 2013, 9:38 am
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Post Re: 2nd Round Pick @ #36 - Darius Slay CB MSST
wjb21ndtown wrote:
TruckinMack wrote:
The Legend wrote:
Elite athletes generally get a BTB (Bone Tendon Bone - patella tendon with tibial tubercle and inf pole of patella). Hamstrings are a good option for recreational type athlete (less painful recovery).

I agree completely, and did not mean to imply otherwise. I've been told that Dr. Shelbourne (who I believe pioneered the B-T-B technique) prefers to use a patellar tendon donation site from the patient's uninjured knee. That way one knee recovers from an ACL reconstruct while the other recovers from a surgically 'torn' (and repaired) patellar tendon. It's an interesting theory. The surgeons in Lansing who do B-T-B surgeries use grafts from the injured side.

The perk of using a patellar tendon, over a hamstring, is that when the patellar tendon is harvested there is a bone chip already attached at both ends of the tendon. The surgeon then drills a hole into the femur and tibia and inserts each bone chip into the hole, screws it into place, and about 8 weeks later the bone to bone grafts are fully healed. Very clever. There are reasons to go with a hamstring graft, but the recovery is significantly longer as you have to wait for the tendon (without a bone chip) to knit to the bone it is surgically attached.

Sorry to hijack a thread on meniscal repair with discussion of an ACL repair.


Hijack away... I love reading your posts regarding medical injuries. You tend to be right more often than the "experts" that give information to the Lions (I'm not saying you're more right than the team doctors, but you at least seem more informed than the people the release information to the media/Lions organization).


Agreed, keep the posts comming!!

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May 14th, 2013, 7:13 pm
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Post Re: 2nd Round Pick @ #36 - Darius Slay CB MSST
TruckinMack wrote:
The Legend wrote:
Elite athletes generally get a BTB (Bone Tendon Bone - patella tendon with tibial tubercle and inf pole of patella). Hamstrings are a good option for recreational type athlete (less painful recovery).

I agree completely, and did not mean to imply otherwise. I've been told that Dr. Shelbourne (who I believe pioneered the B-T-B technique) prefers to use a patellar tendon donation site from the patient's uninjured knee. That way one knee recovers from an ACL reconstruct while the other recovers from a surgically 'torn' (and repaired) patellar tendon. It's an interesting theory. The surgeons in Lansing who do B-T-B surgeries use grafts from the injured side.

The perk of using a patellar tendon, over a hamstring, is that when the patellar tendon is harvested there is a bone chip already attached at both ends of the tendon. The surgeon then drills a hole into the femur and tibia and inserts each bone chip into the hole, screws it into place, and about 8 weeks later the bone to bone grafts are fully healed. Very clever. There are reasons to go with a hamstring graft, but the recovery is significantly longer as you have to wait for the tendon (without a bone chip) to knit to the bone it is surgically attached.

Sorry to hijack a thread on meniscal repair with discussion of an ACL repair.


where did you come up with meniscal repair? thats a much different surgery with a much longer recovery. slay likely had an arthroscopic meniscectomy.


May 16th, 2013, 8:31 am
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Post Re: 2nd Round Pick @ #36 - Darius Slay CB MSST
The Legend wrote:
TruckinMack wrote:
The Legend wrote:
Elite athletes generally get a BTB (Bone Tendon Bone - patella tendon with tibial tubercle and inf pole of patella). Hamstrings are a good option for recreational type athlete (less painful recovery).

I agree completely, and did not mean to imply otherwise. I've been told that Dr. Shelbourne (who I believe pioneered the B-T-B technique) prefers to use a patellar tendon donation site from the patient's uninjured knee. That way one knee recovers from an ACL reconstruct while the other recovers from a surgically 'torn' (and repaired) patellar tendon. It's an interesting theory. The surgeons in Lansing who do B-T-B surgeries use grafts from the injured side.

The perk of using a patellar tendon, over a hamstring, is that when the patellar tendon is harvested there is a bone chip already attached at both ends of the tendon. The surgeon then drills a hole into the femur and tibia and inserts each bone chip into the hole, screws it into place, and about 8 weeks later the bone to bone grafts are fully healed. Very clever. There are reasons to go with a hamstring graft, but the recovery is significantly longer as you have to wait for the tendon (without a bone chip) to knit to the bone it is surgically attached.

Sorry to hijack a thread on meniscal repair with discussion of an ACL repair.


where did you come up with meniscal repair? thats a much different surgery with a much longer recovery. slay likely had an arthroscopic meniscectomy.


I doubt they removed his meniscus. An ectomy is the removal of something.


May 16th, 2013, 8:39 am
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Post Re: 2nd Round Pick @ #36 - Darius Slay CB MSST
BillySims wrote:
The Legend wrote:
TruckinMack wrote:
The Legend wrote:
Elite athletes generally get a BTB (Bone Tendon Bone - patella tendon with tibial tubercle and inf pole of patella). Hamstrings are a good option for recreational type athlete (less painful recovery).

I agree completely, and did not mean to imply otherwise. I've been told that Dr. Shelbourne (who I believe pioneered the B-T-B technique) prefers to use a patellar tendon donation site from the patient's uninjured knee. That way one knee recovers from an ACL reconstruct while the other recovers from a surgically 'torn' (and repaired) patellar tendon. It's an interesting theory. The surgeons in Lansing who do B-T-B surgeries use grafts from the injured side.

The perk of using a patellar tendon, over a hamstring, is that when the patellar tendon is harvested there is a bone chip already attached at both ends of the tendon. The surgeon then drills a hole into the femur and tibia and inserts each bone chip into the hole, screws it into place, and about 8 weeks later the bone to bone grafts are fully healed. Very clever. There are reasons to go with a hamstring graft, but the recovery is significantly longer as you have to wait for the tendon (without a bone chip) to knit to the bone it is surgically attached.

Sorry to hijack a thread on meniscal repair with discussion of an ACL repair.


where did you come up with meniscal repair? thats a much different surgery with a much longer recovery. slay likely had an arthroscopic meniscectomy.


I doubt they removed his meniscus. An ectomy is the removal of something.


it would be partial meniscectomy - just the torn part of meniscus gets trimmed back w a shaver


May 16th, 2013, 9:55 am
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Post Re: 2nd Round Pick @ #36 - Darius Slay CB MSST
The Legend wrote:
TruckinMack wrote:
The Legend wrote:
Elite athletes generally get a BTB (Bone Tendon Bone - patella tendon with tibial tubercle and inf pole of patella). Hamstrings are a good option for recreational type athlete (less painful recovery).

I agree completely, and did not mean to imply otherwise. I've been told that Dr. Shelbourne (who I believe pioneered the B-T-B technique) prefers to use a patellar tendon donation site from the patient's uninjured knee. That way one knee recovers from an ACL reconstruct while the other recovers from a surgically 'torn' (and repaired) patellar tendon. It's an interesting theory. The surgeons in Lansing who do B-T-B surgeries use grafts from the injured side.

The perk of using a patellar tendon, over a hamstring, is that when the patellar tendon is harvested there is a bone chip already attached at both ends of the tendon. The surgeon then drills a hole into the femur and tibia and inserts each bone chip into the hole, screws it into place, and about 8 weeks later the bone to bone grafts are fully healed. Very clever. There are reasons to go with a hamstring graft, but the recovery is significantly longer as you have to wait for the tendon (without a bone chip) to knit to the bone it is surgically attached.

Sorry to hijack a thread on meniscal repair with discussion of an ACL repair.


where did you come up with meniscal repair? thats a much different surgery with a much longer recovery. slay likely had an arthroscopic meniscectomy.


Legend isn't the only difference between the two surgeries that a repair is sewing the tear together while a Meniscectomy is cutting away the damaged piece? I don't remember where I saw it but I'm pretty sure I heard in a training camp video that Slay had a piece of his meniscus snipped. I guess that would make your scenario correct?


May 16th, 2013, 10:11 am
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Post Re: 2nd Round Pick @ #36 - Darius Slay CB MSST
rao wrote:
The Legend wrote:
TruckinMack wrote:
The Legend wrote:
Elite athletes generally get a BTB (Bone Tendon Bone - patella tendon with tibial tubercle and inf pole of patella). Hamstrings are a good option for recreational type athlete (less painful recovery).

I agree completely, and did not mean to imply otherwise. I've been told that Dr. Shelbourne (who I believe pioneered the B-T-B technique) prefers to use a patellar tendon donation site from the patient's uninjured knee. That way one knee recovers from an ACL reconstruct while the other recovers from a surgically 'torn' (and repaired) patellar tendon. It's an interesting theory. The surgeons in Lansing who do B-T-B surgeries use grafts from the injured side.

The perk of using a patellar tendon, over a hamstring, is that when the patellar tendon is harvested there is a bone chip already attached at both ends of the tendon. The surgeon then drills a hole into the femur and tibia and inserts each bone chip into the hole, screws it into place, and about 8 weeks later the bone to bone grafts are fully healed. Very clever. There are reasons to go with a hamstring graft, but the recovery is significantly longer as you have to wait for the tendon (without a bone chip) to knit to the bone it is surgically attached.

Sorry to hijack a thread on meniscal repair with discussion of an ACL repair.


where did you come up with meniscal repair? thats a much different surgery with a much longer recovery. slay likely had an arthroscopic meniscectomy.


Legend isn't the only difference between the two surgeries that a repair is sewing the tear together while a Meniscectomy is cutting away the damaged piece? I don't remember where I saw it but I'm pretty sure I heard in a training camp video that Slay had a piece of his meniscus snipped. I guess that would make your scenario correct?


thats correct but the meniscus is relatively avascular (gets minimal blood supply) so usually a repair cannot be performed bc a stitch will eventually fail - repair would only work if aligning the meniscus together would allow it to heal. that said when the meniscus is repaired, the rehab is altered to protect that repair site, but for a simple partial meniscectomy there are no restrictions.


May 16th, 2013, 10:24 am
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Post Re: 2nd Round Pick @ #36 - Darius Slay CB MSST
The Legend wrote:
rao wrote:
The Legend wrote:
TruckinMack wrote:
The Legend wrote:
Elite athletes generally get a BTB (Bone Tendon Bone - patella tendon with tibial tubercle and inf pole of patella). Hamstrings are a good option for recreational type athlete (less painful recovery).

I agree completely, and did not mean to imply otherwise. I've been told that Dr. Shelbourne (who I believe pioneered the B-T-B technique) prefers to use a patellar tendon donation site from the patient's uninjured knee. That way one knee recovers from an ACL reconstruct while the other recovers from a surgically 'torn' (and repaired) patellar tendon. It's an interesting theory. The surgeons in Lansing who do B-T-B surgeries use grafts from the injured side.

The perk of using a patellar tendon, over a hamstring, is that when the patellar tendon is harvested there is a bone chip already attached at both ends of the tendon. The surgeon then drills a hole into the femur and tibia and inserts each bone chip into the hole, screws it into place, and about 8 weeks later the bone to bone grafts are fully healed. Very clever. There are reasons to go with a hamstring graft, but the recovery is significantly longer as you have to wait for the tendon (without a bone chip) to knit to the bone it is surgically attached.

Sorry to hijack a thread on meniscal repair with discussion of an ACL repair.


where did you come up with meniscal repair? thats a much different surgery with a much longer recovery. slay likely had an arthroscopic meniscectomy.


Legend isn't the only difference between the two surgeries that a repair is sewing the tear together while a Meniscectomy is cutting away the damaged piece? I don't remember where I saw it but I'm pretty sure I heard in a training camp video that Slay had a piece of his meniscus snipped. I guess that would make your scenario correct?


thats correct but the meniscus is relatively avascular (gets minimal blood supply) so usually a repair cannot be performed bc a stitch will eventually fail - repair would only work if aligning the meniscus together would allow it to heal. that said when the meniscus is repaired, the rehab is altered to protect that repair site, but for a simple partial meniscectomy there are no restrictions.


Thanks for the explanation. I've seen the video's of Slay at the rookie camp and you have to be right about it just being a meniscectomy because he doesn't even look like he had surgery. The only thing that showed he's recovery from surgery was the fact he was held out of drills.


May 16th, 2013, 10:37 am
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Post Re: 2nd Round Pick @ #36 - Darius Slay CB MSST
The Legend wrote:
TruckinMack wrote:
Sorry to hijack a thread on meniscal repair with discussion of an ACL repair.

where did you come up with meniscal repair? thats a much different surgery with a much longer recovery. slay likely had an arthroscopic meniscectomy.

Aaargh. I was using the term meniscal repair rather generically, meaning a dusting and cleaning of a meniscus related injury. Slay may have had a very small partial menisectomy, something more (doubtful), or possibly, something less. You are correct in stating a 'meniscal repair' is a more advanced form of surgery, one with a longer healing time. That was not my intent, and I should have been more careful. My apologies.

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Blueskies is my hero. I worship the ground he walks on.


May 18th, 2013, 10:43 pm
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Post Re: 2nd Round Pick @ #36 - Darius Slay CB MSST
I have had a meniscectomy a few times in my life. All done orthoscopically. Also had 2 lateral releases. Meniscectomy I was walking the same day and back to any activity I wanted withing 2 weeks if memory serves. My first lateral realease, doc had me on crutches for 4 weeks. My second I went to a sports med. Doc and he had me walking with a foam brace that day and I was back to playing tennis within a couple of weeks. Love sports ortho guys. They really get you back fast. Mine were over 20yrs ago and think of how far medicine has come since then.

So, he should have no issues with the surgury he had.

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May 19th, 2013, 9:38 am
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