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 Is it just me or has the Off Topic forum gone downhill? 
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Post Re: Is it just me or has the Off Topic forum gone downhill?
TruckinMack wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
no it cant be the schools...both kids were 21 or younger with having a MINIMUM of 12 years of being in country. The hate may have started overseas....but this was a case of home grown ignorance IMO. these guys are no different than McVay to me.....Just someone stupid trying to act like thier cause was more important than other people.


1) Why can't it have started with public education?

and

2) Com'n RJ. You can do it. Say it was 'Islamic Totalitariansim'. If they had killed your mother, brother, child would you be looking at the Michigan Militia to make sure it never happened again? Or would you be looking at Muslim transplants, and those they try corrupt with their teachings of hate? (John Walker Lindh comes to mind.)

Just for giggles, if giggles is ever proper in this context, let's track the next 50 random acts of murder or attempted murder that have a political cause. (I'm trying to eliminate gang violence from this discussion.) I'll bet a buck that 47 or more are attributable to Muslim/Islamic Totalitariansim.



1) cuz it would had to have been OUR schools to teach that....I certainly HOPE thats not the issue or we're all screwed! :wink:

2) that's a real fine line your walking here. that's real akin to saying that 94% black men that are murdered is because they were black. while there is certainly enough truth to what you are saying, you are getting awfully close to making an unfair stereotype. this is bad for 2 reason. 1) is that while there is a basis of truth in almost all stereotypes, you will certainly run across a situation that would be totally unfair to lump into that particular stereotype. 2) what's worse you could miss seeing a REAL problem that is masked by the stereotype.


While the Boston thing is wearing a mask of Muslim extremists, outside of an Emperor Palapatine situation, this is MUCH more of an ignorance thing. neither of those kids knew TRUE Muslim fundamentals, and both were truly Americanized. they had facebooks, favorite movies Like Borat. that's why IMO this falls under the ignorance of youth more than any religious fanaticism.

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May 28th, 2013, 5:04 pm
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Post Re: Is it just me or has the Off Topic forum gone downhill?
Facebook and social media isn't americanized. Islamic fundamentalists has taken full advantage of the internet and social media for their advantage. And honestly, we need to stop the political correctness and get back to stereotyping, because by ignoring the facts and using blinders so we don't unfairly focus on one group, we're letting that group run amok. I will be the first to say that all of Islam isn't bad, but a majority is. And when the majority refuses to condemn the minority, the majority accepts those actions. When the only word against the actions come after the effect just to cull retribution, it fall directly in line with what Islam preaches. And we're idiotically letting it happen. Ignorance of the past leads to a repeat of the past over and over.

94% of black men are murdered because they're black. By other blacks. 75% of all gun shootings are gang related and ~90% of all gunshot victims have at least one felony. That's not coincidence. None of this is an unfair stereotype. The unfair stereotypes are those that are only used to demean and have nothing to do with what is being discussed. Those types of stereotypes are racist and are used to distract from the issues.

The older brother disappeared for 6 months, we were warned by the Russian Intelligence and we did nothing. The system was supposed to flag him when he left (which it did) but failed when he returned. And we ignored multiple threats. Of course if you ignore all of that, then sure it looks like they were completely Americanized and this was all home-grown. If you ignore the Koran instructing followers to hide and lie about who they are to further the goal, then sure it looks like it was home-grown. If you ignore the events in the UK, then yeah, it looks like it was home-grown.

I know everyone wants to be nice and not offend certain people because it goes against the popular trend of "tolerance." The problem with tolerance is that it's supposed to be all-inclusive, not just tolerance for one sect of the community. I have no problem being open and saying while there are some nice Islamists in the world, Islam itself is a problem. And as it gets more and more roots set into communities, it will become even worse. Spend some time and actually research the Koran and Islam, not someone's diluted interpretation based on the sunny side of things.


May 28th, 2013, 5:27 pm
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Post Re: Is it just me or has the Off Topic forum gone downhill?
regularjoe12 wrote:
1) cuz it would had to have been OUR schools to teach that....I certainly HOPE thats not the issue or we're all screwed! :wink:

RJ, you and I finally agree on something?

regularjoe12 wrote:
2) that's a real fine line your walking here. that's real akin to saying that 94% black men that are murdered is because they were black.


Nope. No fine line at all. I'm merely willing to make a bet. I could lose. Or is betting on near certainties now considered racist?

As far as Black people are concerned, I'm willing to make another bet. Even though the country is 10-20% Black, I'll bet that in 2013 of all the hate assaults involving race, more than half are Black assaults on White people.

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May 28th, 2013, 9:27 pm
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Post Re: Is it just me or has the Off Topic forum gone downhill?
njroar wrote:
Facebook and social media isn't americanized. Islamic fundamentalists has taken full advantage of the internet and social media for their advantage. And honestly, we need to stop the political correctness and get back to stereotyping, because by ignoring the facts and using blinders so we don't unfairly focus on one group, we're letting that group run amok. I will be the first to say that all of Islam isn't bad, but a majority is. And when the majority refuses to condemn the minority, the majority accepts those actions. When the only word against the actions come after the effect just to cull retribution, it fall directly in line with what Islam preaches. And we're idiotically letting it happen. Ignorance of the past leads to a repeat of the past over and over.

94% of black men are murdered because they're black. By other blacks. 75% of all gun shootings are gang related and ~90% of all gunshot victims have at least one felony. That's not coincidence. None of this is an unfair stereotype. The unfair stereotypes are those that are only used to demean and have nothing to do with what is being discussed. Those types of stereotypes are racist and are used to distract from the issues.

The older brother disappeared for 6 months, we were warned by the Russian Intelligence and we did nothing. The system was supposed to flag him when he left (which it did) but failed when he returned. And we ignored multiple threats. Of course if you ignore all of that, then sure it looks like they were completely Americanized and this was all home-grown. If you ignore the Koran instructing followers to hide and lie about who they are to further the goal, then sure it looks like it was home-grown. If you ignore the events in the UK, then yeah, it looks like it was home-grown.

I know everyone wants to be nice and not offend certain people because it goes against the popular trend of "tolerance." The problem with tolerance is that it's supposed to be all-inclusive, not just tolerance for one sect of the community. I have no problem being open and saying while there are some nice Islamists in the world, Islam itself is a problem. And as it gets more and more roots set into communities, it will become even worse. Spend some time and actually research the Koran and Islam, not someone's diluted interpretation based on the sunny side of things.


In WWII we punished Asians for the horrors of Japan. To atone for that sin, we refuse to accuse Islam as we ready for WW III.

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May 28th, 2013, 9:30 pm
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Post Re: Is it just me or has the Off Topic forum gone downhill?
Even Bill Maher, who is far left on most issues, calls comparing Islamic crazies with other religious crazies "liberal bullshit". Check it out:


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May 28th, 2013, 10:25 pm
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Post Re: Is it just me or has the Off Topic forum gone downhill?
If I had one wish in life, it would be ingraining this one simple truth in people's minds:
correlation does not equal causation

The problem with simply blaming the Muslim religion is that cause and effect are never really clear.

For example, something like only 0.03% of people in the US prison system are atheists. Even though, statistically, atheists are like like 5-20% of the population. Also, something like 90% of the US prison population is black men, even though they're only about 8% of the broader population.

Are black, religious men more likely to commit/get convicted of crimes than other groups?

It appears that way. While the fact that they're men might have something to do with it, I don't think being black or religious is relevant to the discussion. Rather, it's that they're overwhelming poor, have little education, and grow up in a violent environment, among other factors.

Most of the Muslim terrorists were born and raised in poverty stricken, war torn countries with brutal dictatorial governments financed all/in part by the USA and other western governments. They could worship the Sun God and they'd probably act the same.

If you can show me examples of muslim kids born and raised in the US by middle class families, turning around and committing major acts of terror, then I'll concede that it's Islam.

The other thing to realize is that there's a definite observer bias. For example, if you want to consider the crazy in the UK a "Muslim terrorist" then you must also consider the guy who shot the abortion doctor Tiller a few years ago a "Christian terrorist." Yet, few ever actually call it that.

Another factor is that a lot people are violent and want to do bad things for no good reason, only later ascribing a cause to their desires as justification. If the kid who shot up the elementary school in Connecticut was a Muslim, people would call it an Islamic act of terror because of their bias. When in fact he was just mentally ill.


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Post Re: Is it just me or has the Off Topic forum gone downhill?
Blueskies wrote:
If I had one wish in life, it would be ingraining this one simple truth in people's minds:
correlation does not equal causation

The problem with simply blaming the Muslim religion is that cause and effect are never really clear.

For example, something like only 0.03% of people in the US prison system are atheists. Even though, statistically, atheists are like like 5-20% of the population. Also, something like 90% of the US prison population is black men, even though they're only about 8% of the broader population.

Are black, religious men more likely to commit/get convicted of crimes than other groups?

It appears that way. While the fact that they're men might have something to do with it, I don't think being black or religious is relevant to the discussion. Rather, it's that they're overwhelming poor, have little education, and grow up in a violent environment, among other factors.

Most of the Muslim terrorists were born and raised in poverty stricken, war torn countries with brutal dictatorial governments financed all/in part by the USA and other western governments. They could worship the Sun God and they'd probably act the same.

If you can show me examples of muslim kids born and raised in the US by middle class families, turning around and committing major acts of terror, then I'll concede that it's Islam.

The other thing to realize is that there's a definite observer bias. For example, if you want to consider the crazy in the UK a "Muslim terrorist" then you must also consider the guy who shot the abortion doctor Tiller a few years ago a "Christian terrorist." Yet, few ever actually call it that.

Another factor is that a lot people are violent and want to do bad things for no good reason, only later ascribing a cause to their desires as justification. If the kid who shot up the elementary school in Connecticut was a Muslim, people would call it an Islamic act of terror because of their bias. When in fact he was just mentally ill.


So, you are saying that I win the bet, but for the wrong reason. I'm good. I won the bet. Now I just gots to find a way to get your buck.

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May 29th, 2013, 5:48 am
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Post Re: Is it just me or has the Off Topic forum gone downhill?
Blueskies wrote:
If I had one wish in life, it would be ingraining this one simple truth in people's minds:
correlation does not equal causation

The problem with simply blaming the Muslim religion is that cause and effect are never really clear.

For example, something like only 0.03% of people in the US prison system are atheists. Even though, statistically, atheists are like like 5-20% of the population. Also, something like 90% of the US prison population is black men, even though they're only about 8% of the broader population.

Are black, religious men more likely to commit/get convicted of crimes than other groups?

It appears that way. While the fact that they're men might have something to do with it, I don't think being black or religious is relevant to the discussion. Rather, it's that they're overwhelming poor, have little education, and grow up in a violent environment, among other factors.

Most of the Muslim terrorists were born and raised in poverty stricken, war torn countries with brutal dictatorial governments financed all/in part by the USA and other western governments. They could worship the Sun God and they'd probably act the same.

If you can show me examples of muslim kids born and raised in the US by middle class families, turning around and committing major acts of terror, then I'll concede that it's Islam.

The other thing to realize is that there's a definite observer bias. For example, if you want to consider the crazy in the UK a "Muslim terrorist" then you must also consider the guy who shot the abortion doctor Tiller a few years ago a "Christian terrorist." Yet, few ever actually call it that.

Another factor is that a lot people are violent and want to do bad things for no good reason, only later ascribing a cause to their desires as justification. If the kid who shot up the elementary school in Connecticut was a Muslim, people would call it an Islamic act of terror because of their bias. When in fact he was just mentally ill.



this pretty much touched on exactly why relying on stereotypes can be so harmful. Simply saying blaiming on the commonality can cause you to overlook the impoortant details as to why something is actually happening. and I think you hit the nail right on the head when you brought up the poverty issue.

I can't help but think that the wiser man always looks deeper than just the simple generalization. and it's by doing that true solutions can be found (so we dont repeat the mistakes pointed out above...like the Japanese prison camps for American citizens)

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May 29th, 2013, 1:22 pm
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Post Re: Is it just me or has the Off Topic forum gone downhill?
I would like to agree that RELIGION has nothing to do with it.

According to the statistics, 80% of America is Christian. Take a look at our billboards, television programs, internet, and divorce rates, crime rates, and tell that 20% of the population is responsible for that? Impossible.

In regards to your question about the poor, and I won't label a race here, because so many more are affected than one color or another.

What benefits did segment b have that segment c does not? Public education is filled with kids who put forth the effort to rise above their situations. Now if you want to filter in environment, you'll need to travel back in time to the integration of Welfare, and how that has IN MY OPINION strongly contributed to the break down in the American Family structure.

In homes with 2 parents, students are more apt to succeed. So when Segment C started suffering a break down of the family unit, and absentee fathers, you had an angry, over tired, over stressed, female population that couldn't rise above their situations, because they were shouldering the responsibility of two parents. It was/is a perpetual downward spiral that will not get better.

We now live in a society that doesn't teach, nor encourage, personal responsibility. There is more to manhood than just carrying the parts. What we are seeing is fatherless children who are now fathering fatherless children, and expecting the State to pick up the tab. It's a break down in society.

Where religion has gone wrong, is that it has long taught the rituals and regualtions, but removed the relationship. So you have a bunch of thou shalt nots, and a people who are asking why? But if we focused on teaching RELATIONSHIP, loving the neighbor, and taking care of the poor would not be a government responsibility, but a community responsibility, that was done through developing relationships with the stricken family.

Just throwing in my 2 cents...

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May 29th, 2013, 2:52 pm
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Post Re: Is it just me or has the Off Topic forum gone downhill?
Blueskies wrote:
If you can show me examples of muslim kids born and raised in the US by middle class families, turning around and committing major acts of terror, then I'll concede that it's Islam.


If you look at the worlds violence, and not just violence in the United States, you would realize that it is Muslims that are responsible for most of those terrorist acts.

As for your statement about kids being born and raised by middle class families doing things....wasn't Richard Ramirez born and raised here in the United States by a middle class family? And wasn't Osama Bin Laden raised by a WEALTHY Saudi family?

Sorry, but not all those involved in the terrorist activities of various extremist Muslim groups have come from dirt poor families, or were raised in the midst of tyranny and chaos.

That said, I don't believe for one instance that all Muslims are evil, violent people bent on the destruction of America or its Constitution. However, I do know that the Quran was written by a warlord who enjoyed raping children and the wives of soldiers he sent out to die in the wars he mongered. And I also know that the passages within the Quran he wrote encourage the destruction of those who don't believe as those who follow him should believe. Islam is not a religion of peace, but of domination and intolerance.

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May 29th, 2013, 4:02 pm
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Post Re: Is it just me or has the Off Topic forum gone downhill?
m2karateman wrote:
Blueskies wrote:
If you can show me examples of muslim kids born and raised in the US by middle class families, turning around and committing major acts of terror, then I'll concede that it's Islam.


If you look at the worlds violence, and not just violence in the United States, you would realize that it is Muslims that are responsible for most of those terrorist acts.

As for your statement about kids being born and raised by middle class families doing things....wasn't Richard Ramirez born and raised here in the United States by a middle class family? And wasn't Osama Bin Laden raised by a WEALTHY Saudi family?

Sorry, but not all those involved in the terrorist activities of various extremist Muslim groups have come from dirt poor families, or were raised in the midst of tyranny and chaos.

That said, I don't believe for one instance that all Muslims are evil, violent people bent on the destruction of America or its Constitution. However, I do know that the Quran was written by a warlord who enjoyed raping children and the wives of soldiers he sent out to die in the wars he mongered. And I also know that the passages within the Quran he wrote encourage the destruction of those who don't believe as those who follow him should believe. Islam is not a religion of peace, but of domination and intolerance.


Like I said, I think there's a bias where people equate muslim violence = terrorism.

Take the guy in Norway a couple summers ago that went on a rampage and shot a bunch of kids. He was, among other things, a Christian who hated Muslims. But the media didn't label him a "Christian terrorist," they just called him a "right-wing" nutjob.

Richard Ramirez? The serial killer? Or did you mean Richard Reid, the shoe bomber? Reid was from a middle class family but dropped out of school at 16, had numerous run-ins with the law, etc. He converted to Islam, and later used that to justify trying to bomb a plane. In reality, I think he's just a very troubled person who, if he never found Islam, probably would've gone on to numerous violent crimes anyway.

When you actually look at Osama Bin Laden -- he was a very peculiar person. He was obviously intelligent and had a great deal of family wealth. If I was him, I would've spent my days living on a caribbean island with numerous young women, not in caves.

But Bin Laden was a charismatic leader. He built a large network that was able to accomplish incredible acts of violence. But, could he have built that network if he didn't have a bunch of willing recruits?

To be frank, I'm sure there are a fair number of would-be Bin Ladens in this country. People that would like to build networks to accomplish various horrific things -- racist killings, nutty religious things, whatever. But all the nutjobs in this country, and really the rest of the western world, are limited by the fact that there aren't enough people they can convince to go along with them.

That's why I believe every time you see some "home grown" terrorism, it's one guy or just a couple. There isn't enough angry, pissed off people to recruit.

In the Middle East? Tons and tons of recruits. I haven't been to Egypt, but all the reports I've read indicate that its economy has collapsed in the last two years. Violence on the rise, prostitution rampant, etc. Someone like Bin Laden could easily swoop in, promise great things, point to the West as the great Satan, and a build a network to accomplish evil.

Like Hitler in Germany. Is that German people are just inherently evil, prone to violence and genocide? Or was it that 10 years of political unrest, hyperinflation, etc. allowed a guy like Hitler to step in and do his thing?

Don't get me wrong. People that try to equate Muslim extremism with Christian extremism are just dumb. Muslim fundamentalism is a real threat to our way of life and should be fought against as much as possible.

But I would ask people to look at the bigger picture. Cause and effect are rarely evident.


May 29th, 2013, 4:50 pm
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Post Re: Is it just me or has the Off Topic forum gone downhill?
Blueskies wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
Blueskies wrote:
If you can show me examples of muslim kids born and raised in the US by middle class families, turning around and committing major acts of terror, then I'll concede that it's Islam.


If you look at the worlds violence, and not just violence in the United States, you would realize that it is Muslims that are responsible for most of those terrorist acts.

As for your statement about kids being born and raised by middle class families doing things....wasn't Richard Ramirez born and raised here in the United States by a middle class family? And wasn't Osama Bin Laden raised by a WEALTHY Saudi family?

Sorry, but not all those involved in the terrorist activities of various extremist Muslim groups have come from dirt poor families, or were raised in the midst of tyranny and chaos.

That said, I don't believe for one instance that all Muslims are evil, violent people bent on the destruction of America or its Constitution. However, I do know that the Quran was written by a warlord who enjoyed raping children and the wives of soldiers he sent out to die in the wars he mongered. And I also know that the passages within the Quran he wrote encourage the destruction of those who don't believe as those who follow him should believe. Islam is not a religion of peace, but of domination and intolerance.


Like I said, I think there's a bias where people equate muslim violence = terrorism.

Take the guy in Norway a couple summers ago that went on a rampage and shot a bunch of kids. He was, among other things, a Christian who hated Muslims. But the media didn't label him a "Christian terrorist," they just called him a "right-wing" nutjob.

Richard Ramirez? The serial killer? Or did you mean Richard Reid, the shoe bomber? Reid was from a middle class family but dropped out of school at 16, had numerous run-ins with the law, etc. He converted to Islam, and later used that to justify trying to bomb a plane. In reality, I think he's just a very troubled person who, if he never found Islam, probably would've gone on to numerous violent crimes anyway.

When you actually look at Osama Bin Laden -- he was a very peculiar person. He was obviously intelligent and had a great deal of family wealth. If I was him, I would've spent my days living on a caribbean island with numerous young women, not in caves.

But Bin Laden was a charismatic leader. He built a large network that was able to accomplish incredible acts of violence. But, could he have built that network if he didn't have a bunch of willing recruits?

To be frank, I'm sure there are a fair number of would-be Bin Ladens in this country. People that would like to build networks to accomplish various horrific things -- racist killings, nutty religious things, whatever. But all the nutjobs in this country, and really the rest of the western world, are limited by the fact that there aren't enough people they can convince to go along with them.

That's why I believe every time you see some "home grown" terrorism, it's one guy or just a couple. There isn't enough angry, pissed off people to recruit.

In the Middle East? Tons and tons of recruits. I haven't been to Egypt, but all the reports I've read indicate that its economy has collapsed in the last two years. Violence on the rise, prostitution rampant, etc. Someone like Bin Laden could easily swoop in, promise great things, point to the West as the great Satan, and a build a network to accomplish evil.

Like Hitler in Germany. Is that German people are just inherently evil, prone to violence and genocide? Or was it that 10 years of political unrest, hyperinflation, etc. allowed a guy like Hitler to step in and do his thing?

Don't get me wrong. People that try to equate Muslim extremism with Christian extremism are just dumb. Muslim fundamentalism is a real threat to our way of life and should be fought against as much as possible.

But I would ask people to look at the bigger picture. Cause and effect are rarely evident.


My bad. I did mean Richard Reid.

Interesting comparison you make by bringing up Hitler. I don't think anyone here has said that all Muslim people are violent, or prone to violence. But like the saying goes 'one bad apple spoils the whole bunch'. Mob mentality exists everywhere, and it exists because of people's desire not to commit a violent act, but to be part of the act rather than the victim of it. It was pretty much that way in pre-WWII Germany. A majority of the population KNEW that Hitler was off his rocker, but they feared his Brownshirts and the SS. They didn't want to be one of the folks who disappeared at night after openly condemning Hitler's actions. Germany became a haven of paranoia, nobody trusting their neighbors. However, in Germany the Nazi's improved the economy at a monumental rate, which is yet another reason why the people were so tolerant of what was going on. If things are going good in the economy, the general population is more than willing to look the other way when some sort of evil is perpetrated on someone else.

There are some people alive today who still feel Hitler was a great leader and that his views of how Germany was treated after WWI were justified. He took them from the worst of economic conditions to a great deal of wealth in a short period of time. I understand that it was not a sustainable economic model, but at that time people in Germany didn't care. I have to believe it's that way with most dictators and tyrannists. They make life better for a group of people, get their support, find a target to blame for the problems and away they go. Once they are in power, they are like a tick on the back of a pitbull. You won't get them out without a bunch of people getting hurt in the process.

I don't disagree that most violence is going to erupt from economically depressed areas and people. And of course, economically depressed areas are those with the worst education and highest crime rate. But the fact is that the Middle East, its countries and people have been at war for thousands of years, either with each other or someone else outside their borders. Their entire history has been one of killing, stealing and attempting to dominate the world around, rather than living in harmony. That's not a stereotype, that's just a fact. And after thousands of years of that behavior, one could surmise that people FROM that area will act that way regardless of where they are. It is one reason why people who come here from the Middle East EXPECT us to accept them and make changes to accomodate them, rather than them accepting American way of life and attempting to assimulate into our society.

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June 3rd, 2013, 3:00 pm
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Post Re: Is it just me or has the Off Topic forum gone downhill?
Quote:
Romney thought the only thing people care about was the economy, as if all we need is a little more pocket change. Romney ran away from cultural issues like a frightened cat and lost. If Romney chose an Allen West or Condi Rice, if he welcomed the TEA party with open arms, if he went to lunch at Chik-fil-a and thanked them for a wonderful meal, he wins the election. Romney tried to win by playing it safe and inspired nobody.


I also find issue with this line of reasoning.

First, the Tea Party was never intended to be about social issues. It was originally started as an opposition to bailouts and taxation (hence the allusion to the Tea Party.....). Secondly, many of the classic Tea Party Republicans have gone down in flames. Allen West, Michelle Bachman, etc.

The future of the Republican party doesn't lie with social conservatism. The millennial generation (which is actually larger than the Baby Boomers) is overwhelmingly in favor of things like gay marriage, marijuana legalization, etc. I would predict that, come 2016, at least two of the Republican contenders will support gay marriage, and in 10 years, nearly all of them will.

I would think that the future of the Republican party lies in entitlement reform (which, if not handled, will bankrupt this country), economic freedom, and privacy rights (which will become an increasingly important issue in the modern, digital world).


June 4th, 2013, 3:57 am
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Post Re: Is it just me or has the Off Topic forum gone downhill?
Maybe the problem is screaming at us and we're too blinded to see it. LABELS

You made mention of the guy in Norway, who claimed to be Christian. I also mentioned that 80% of America "claims" to be Christian. But let me add a quick piece of Scripture to help with the discussion. By their FRUITS you shall know them (my paraphrase).

We have the saying, "you judge a tree by it's fruits." So what needs to happen before someone is "labeled" a Christian or Muslim is take a look at the fruits.

It is a well documented that the literacy rate in the middle east is very low. If you don't have the wealth, or family status, you have very little educational opportunities. So what takes the place of the school? A Muslim Religion training center taught by a cleric. Now if said cleric is radical, what do you believe he's teaching his students? They aren't taught ABC, Math, Engineering, and so on, they are given a tablet in which the cleric has inscribed what he wants memorized. Then they sit and vocally memorize while rocking back and forth in almost a trance like state.

What would be interesting to know is how does one become a cleric? Is there a filtering process that keeps out the radicals? Because by the labeling you've suggested with Norway, David Koresh was a Christian, and they guy with the Cyanide Kool Aid was a Christian, and we know these are in direct contrast to ANYTHING that Jesus taught. That's why they call them cults!

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2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."


June 4th, 2013, 8:58 am
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Commissioner of the NFL – Roger Goodell
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Post Re: Is it just me or has the Off Topic forum gone downhill?
It's because I left to pursue other interests. :D

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July 28th, 2013, 3:35 pm
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