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 The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report Says 
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Post Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report
regularjoe12 wrote:
personallly Im calling Shennanniganns on the race card being used in current MJ laws myself. yes looking at the numbers amkes things look like it might be, but lets look at other criminal activity shall we?


Gang violence is committed mostly by minorities, are laws against Gangs racist?


i think calling thses laws racist is an excuse to overlook bigger and significantly more "real" problems.

Maybe racial profiling is the cause? maybe poverty levels cause the broke minority communities to become pharmacutical distributors and thats why the higher arrest rate? i dont know....and i'm not going to find out if they just call the surface issues racist and never take the time to find the root of the problem.
Ok, you're calling Shenanigans, then prove your point and/or prove the provided data incorrect. Its one thing to not agree or perhaps believe the data, its another to disprove it. Unless and until someone can refute the provided data, why should I choose to not accept it?

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June 25th, 2013, 12:00 pm
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Post Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report
TheRealWags wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
personallly Im calling Shennanniganns on the race card being used in current MJ laws myself. yes looking at the numbers amkes things look like it might be, but lets look at other criminal activity shall we?


Gang violence is committed mostly by minorities, are laws against Gangs racist?


i think calling thses laws racist is an excuse to overlook bigger and significantly more "real" problems.

Maybe racial profiling is the cause? maybe poverty levels cause the broke minority communities to become pharmacutical distributors and thats why the higher arrest rate? i dont know....and i'm not going to find out if they just call the surface issues racist and never take the time to find the root of the problem.
Ok, you're calling Shenanigans, then prove your point and/or prove the provided data incorrect. Its one thing to not agree or perhaps believe the data, its another to disprove it. Unless and until someone can refute the provided data, why should I choose to not accept it?



Im not saying their data is "wrong"...what Im saying is that if look at deeper you'll find that it's not race thats causing the issue....it's financial well being. The average guy getting busted for possession barely sees a day in jail. the guy selling it does. the people spending time in jail are doin so cuz they either have a TON of the stuff, or because they are selling it. People who have good jobs generaly dont sell drugs. ( and for now sadly Pot qualifies as a drug). I truely believe the arrest record displayed more of a poverty indicator than a racial discrimination thing.


truth: larger % of minorities live in poverty stricken areas.....thus a larger percent of minorities are getting arrested/breaking laws beacuse they see fewer alternatives to live thier life. You fix that stat, and i think you'll find arrests become balanced out.

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June 25th, 2013, 12:14 pm
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Post Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report
regularjoe12 wrote:
Im not saying their data is "wrong"...what Im saying is that if look at deeper you'll find that it's not race thats causing the issue....it's financial well being. The average guy getting busted for possession barely sees a day in jail. the guy selling it does. the people spending time in jail are doin so cuz they either have a TON of the stuff, or because they are selling it. People who have good jobs generaly dont sell drugs. ( and for now sadly Pot qualifies as a drug). I truely believe the arrest record displayed more of a poverty indicator than a racial discrimination thing.

truth: larger % of minorities live in poverty stricken areas.....thus a larger percent of minorities are getting arrested/breaking laws beacuse they see fewer alternatives to live thier life. You fix that stat, and i think you'll find arrests become balanced out.
Quote:
A report released recently by the American Civil Liberties Union revealed that nationally, blacks were four times as likely as whites to be arrested for marijuana possession. It also indicated that these unfortunate numbers were true despite the fact that marijuana use is about the same for both black and white Americans.
I think you might be missing something in that the average white person who gets busted for possession barely sees jail, whereas the average minority person busted for possession does see jail. THAT is what the report is saying.

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June 25th, 2013, 12:41 pm
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Post Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report
TheRealWags wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
Im not saying their data is "wrong"...what Im saying is that if look at deeper you'll find that it's not race thats causing the issue....it's financial well being. The average guy getting busted for possession barely sees a day in jail. the guy selling it does. the people spending time in jail are doin so cuz they either have a TON of the stuff, or because they are selling it. People who have good jobs generaly dont sell drugs. ( and for now sadly Pot qualifies as a drug). I truely believe the arrest record displayed more of a poverty indicator than a racial discrimination thing.

truth: larger % of minorities live in poverty stricken areas.....thus a larger percent of minorities are getting arrested/breaking laws beacuse they see fewer alternatives to live thier life. You fix that stat, and i think you'll find arrests become balanced out.
Quote:
A report released recently by the American Civil Liberties Union revealed that nationally, blacks were four times as likely as whites to be arrested for marijuana possession. It also indicated that these unfortunate numbers were true despite the fact that marijuana use is about the same for both black and white Americans.
I think you might be missing something in that the average white person who gets busted for possession barely sees jail, whereas the average minority person busted for possession does see jail. THAT is what the report is saying.


And RJ goes on to say why that's the case...

Further, there's something to be said for income and an ability to pay bond, and afford an attorney. Is that "racist" too?

This crap applies to everyone, it's not racist in any way, but it does have a greater effect on minorities given how they choose to live their lives.


June 25th, 2013, 12:49 pm
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Post Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report
wjb21ndtown wrote:
TheRealWags wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
Im not saying their data is "wrong"...what Im saying is that if look at deeper you'll find that it's not race thats causing the issue....it's financial well being. The average guy getting busted for possession barely sees a day in jail. the guy selling it does. the people spending time in jail are doin so cuz they either have a TON of the stuff, or because they are selling it. People who have good jobs generaly dont sell drugs. ( and for now sadly Pot qualifies as a drug). I truely believe the arrest record displayed more of a poverty indicator than a racial discrimination thing.

truth: larger % of minorities live in poverty stricken areas.....thus a larger percent of minorities are getting arrested/breaking laws beacuse they see fewer alternatives to live thier life. You fix that stat, and i think you'll find arrests become balanced out.
Quote:
A report released recently by the American Civil Liberties Union revealed that nationally, blacks were four times as likely as whites to be arrested for marijuana possession. It also indicated that these unfortunate numbers were true despite the fact that marijuana use is about the same for both black and white Americans.
I think you might be missing something in that the average white person who gets busted for possession barely sees jail, whereas the average minority person busted for possession does see jail. THAT is what the report is saying.
And RJ goes on to say why that's the case...

Further, there's something to be said for income and an ability to pay bond, and afford an attorney. Is that "racist" too?

This crap applies to everyone, it's not racist in any way, but it does have a greater effect on minorities given how they choose to live their lives.
The point being that a minority is more likely to be arrested and booked at the station whereas a non-minority isn't and this is regardless of where the incident took place. What is so difficult to understand about that? Hell, it happens in NYC on a daily basis. Have you not heard of the police asking peeps to empty their pockets then arresting them if they find contraband? This happens disproportionately to minorities.

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June 25th, 2013, 1:03 pm
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Post Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report
TheRealWags wrote:
Hell, it happens in NYC on a daily basis. Have you not heard of the police asking peeps to empty their pockets then arresting them if they find contraband? This happens disproportionately to minorities.
Its called 'Stop and Frisk'

Quote:
The stop-and-frisk program still disproportionately affects minority residents, and it has become the subject of three federal lawsuits. In Floyd v. the City of New York, plaintiffs argue that the Police Department is stopping and frisking people based on race rather than reasonable suspicion of criminal behavior. If a federal court rules against the city, it could potentially install a monitor to oversee reforms.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/25/opini ... opandfrisk
Quote:
Wading into the debate over stop-and-frisk police tactics, Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo plans to ask legislators on Monday for a change in New York State law that would drastically reduce the number of people who could be arrested for marijuana possession as a result of police stops.

The governor will call for the decriminalization of possession of small amounts of marijuana in public view, administration officials said. Advocates of such a change say the offense has ensnared tens of thousands of young black and Latino men who are stopped by the New York City police for other reasons but after being instructed to empty their pockets, find themselves charged with a crime.

Reducing the impact of the Bloomberg administration’s stop-and-frisk policy has been a top priority of lawmakers from minority neighborhoods, who have urged Mr. Cuomo, a Democrat, to pay more attention to the needs of their communities. The lawmakers argue that young men found with small amounts of marijuana are being needlessly funneled into the criminal justice system and have difficulty finding jobs as a result.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/04/nyreg ... d=all&_r=0
Or is NYC considered a poor area, barrio, etc???

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June 25th, 2013, 1:09 pm
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Post Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report
TheRealWags wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
TheRealWags wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
Im not saying their data is "wrong"...what Im saying is that if look at deeper you'll find that it's not race thats causing the issue....it's financial well being. The average guy getting busted for possession barely sees a day in jail. the guy selling it does. the people spending time in jail are doin so cuz they either have a TON of the stuff, or because they are selling it. People who have good jobs generaly dont sell drugs. ( and for now sadly Pot qualifies as a drug). I truely believe the arrest record displayed more of a poverty indicator than a racial discrimination thing.

truth: larger % of minorities live in poverty stricken areas.....thus a larger percent of minorities are getting arrested/breaking laws beacuse they see fewer alternatives to live thier life. You fix that stat, and i think you'll find arrests become balanced out.
Quote:
A report released recently by the American Civil Liberties Union revealed that nationally, blacks were four times as likely as whites to be arrested for marijuana possession. It also indicated that these unfortunate numbers were true despite the fact that marijuana use is about the same for both black and white Americans.
I think you might be missing something in that the average white person who gets busted for possession barely sees jail, whereas the average minority person busted for possession does see jail. THAT is what the report is saying.
And RJ goes on to say why that's the case...

Further, there's something to be said for income and an ability to pay bond, and afford an attorney. Is that "racist" too?

This crap applies to everyone, it's not racist in any way, but it does have a greater effect on minorities given how they choose to live their lives.
The point being that a minority is more likely to be arrested and booked at the station whereas a non-minority isn't and this is regardless of where the incident took place. What is so difficult to understand about that? Hell, it happens in NYC on a daily basis. Have you not heard of the police asking peeps to empty their pockets then arresting them if they find contraband? This happens disproportionately to minorities.


And RJ correctly pointed out, that a minority is more likely to have sold the drugs, where as a white person is more likely to have purchased a small quantity for personal consumption. What's so hard to understand about that? Hll, it happens in NYC on a daily basis...

:idea: :arrow:

Stuff like that happens disproportionately to UNEDUCATED Americans, which many happen to be minorities, because of THEIR LIFE CHOICES. Starting to get it yet?


June 25th, 2013, 1:10 pm
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Post Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report
wjb21ndtown wrote:
And RJ correctly pointed out, that a minority is more likely to have sold the drugs, where as a white person is more likely to have purchased a small quantity for personal consumption. What's so hard to understand about that?
What you seem to be presenting are stereotypes. Are you advocating that our laws should mirror stereotypes? No Asians or Women should drive, eh? All Polish peeps are dumb and therefore have no rights or should be institutionalized? I'm guessing all blacks should only be allowed to participate in sports too, eh? To go further, then all Arabic peeps are terrorists and Jews run the banking system, etc, etc, etc.

Tell you what, as you're so convinced you're right, how about you present data to back up your stance?

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June 25th, 2013, 1:24 pm
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Post Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report
TheRealWags wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
And RJ correctly pointed out, that a minority is more likely to have sold the drugs, where as a white person is more likely to have purchased a small quantity for personal consumption. What's so hard to understand about that?
What you seem to be presenting are stereotypes. Are you advocating that our laws should mirror stereotypes? No Asians or Women should drive, eh? All Polish peeps are dumb and therefore have no rights or should be institutionalized? I'm guessing all blacks should only be allowed to participate in sports too, eh? To go further, then all Arabic peeps are terrorists and Jews run the banking system, etc, etc, etc.

Tell you what, as you're so convinced you're right, how about you present data to back up your stance?


Where the hell do you get this crap about what people should and shouldn't be allowed to do? You've stepped off of the deep end. That was beyond moronic.

Not stereo types facts, which lead to false conclusions (that the law is some how racist). If black people speed more they're going to get more speeding tickets, it has nothing to do with "speeding" being a racist crime. No different than what you're seeing here.

There is no data that tracks drug dealers afaik.


June 25th, 2013, 1:38 pm
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Post Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report
wjb21ndtown wrote:
TheRealWags wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
And RJ correctly pointed out, that a minority is more likely to have sold the drugs, where as a white person is more likely to have purchased a small quantity for personal consumption. What's so hard to understand about that?
What you seem to be presenting are stereotypes. Are you advocating that our laws should mirror stereotypes? No Asians or Women should drive, eh? All Polish peeps are dumb and therefore have no rights or should be institutionalized? I'm guessing all blacks should only be allowed to participate in sports too, eh? To go further, then all Arabic peeps are terrorists and Jews run the banking system, etc, etc, etc.

Tell you what, as you're so convinced you're right, how about you present data to back up your stance?
Where the hell do you get this crap about what people should and shouldn't be allowed to do? You've stepped off of the deep end. That was beyond moronic.

Not stereo types facts, which lead to false conclusions (that the law is some how racist). If black people speed more they're going to get more speeding tickets, it has nothing to do with "speeding" being a racist crime. No different than what you're seeing here.

There is no data that tracks drug dealers afaik.
Just using the same link of thinking you are.
And we're not talking about drug dealers, were talking about simple possession & use.

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June 25th, 2013, 2:09 pm
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Post Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report
TheRealWags wrote:
Are you for wasting millions / billions of taxpayer money on an unwinable 'war'? Just wondering why you feel that it is doomed for failure, yet that it should also be fought. Seems confusing.
It's doomed to failure because Pot is too easy to grow. I can understand fighting a war on drugs as drug addiction is so devastating. At length I expect some form of accomodation with drug use to result, (for example, legal drug houses where you purchase and use drugs on site). Until that time I expect the war on drugs to continue.

TheRealWags wrote:
Is it your position that 'racism' can not be used as a reason for anything? Why?

My position is that true White on Black 'Racism' is a rarity in public life. Much, much more common is Black on White 'Racism', Racism that is, by and large, ignored by the media. S--- Eric Holder has said as much as, 'I aint prosecuting a brother!' The current culture is full of p-----s who won't call out Black people for Racism. As a result, my lexicon is set at, 'If it is good enough for them, then it's good enough for me.'

Edit: BTW, what's with your x'd out avatar?

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June 25th, 2013, 2:16 pm
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Post Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report
TheRealWags wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
TheRealWags wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
And RJ correctly pointed out, that a minority is more likely to have sold the drugs, where as a white person is more likely to have purchased a small quantity for personal consumption. What's so hard to understand about that?
What you seem to be presenting are stereotypes. Are you advocating that our laws should mirror stereotypes? No Asians or Women should drive, eh? All Polish peeps are dumb and therefore have no rights or should be institutionalized? I'm guessing all blacks should only be allowed to participate in sports too, eh? To go further, then all Arabic peeps are terrorists and Jews run the banking system, etc, etc, etc.

Tell you what, as you're so convinced you're right, how about you present data to back up your stance?
Where the hell do you get this crap about what people should and shouldn't be allowed to do? You've stepped off of the deep end. That was beyond moronic.

Not stereo types facts, which lead to false conclusions (that the law is some how racist). If black people speed more they're going to get more speeding tickets, it has nothing to do with "speeding" being a racist crime. No different than what you're seeing here.

There is no data that tracks drug dealers afaik.
Just using the same link of thinking you are.
And we're not talking about drug dealers, were talking about simple possession & use.


Now you're changing the subject... Like I said, RJ provided real reasons for the disparities in arrest rates... And "possession with intent to distribute" is very different than possession... and quantity and paraphernalia have something to do with it as well.

You weren't applying any sort of "line of thinking" that I was using. I never said that any race creed or color shouldn't be allowed to do anything illegal, nor be precluded from doing anything legal. All I DID say was that IF one sect of society does engage in illegal activity more so than others, they're going to be punished in a disproportionate way. Similarly, the law takes advantage of and punishes differently those that choose to be uneducated. If one sect of society chooses to remain uneducated, it's going to be disadvantaged as such.


June 25th, 2013, 2:49 pm
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Post Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report
a couple of thoughts here:

I have NEVER known anyone to get busted for having pot on them and being let go..no matter what color they were.Based on what you said in a previous post you could be addressing a problem with the cops themselves profiling (Which would be morally wrong) and THAT is where the racism would lie, not in the law itself.


And the other thought I have is about your discussion on stereotypes. Stereotyping is wrong dont get me wrong, but they exist for a reason. it is extremly rare for a stereotype to pop up and there not be a good foundation of truth to it. It's wrong to say "all blacks sell drugs" for many MANY reasons. But is it wrong to say the majority of people who sell drugs are black? sadly stereotypes are born of truth then greatly exagerated.


my 2 cents

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June 25th, 2013, 3:33 pm
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Post Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report
TruckinMack wrote:
TheRealWags wrote:
Are you for wasting millions / billions of taxpayer money on an unwinable 'war'? Just wondering why you feel that it is doomed for failure, yet that it should also be fought. Seems confusing.
It's doomed to failure because Pot is too easy to grow. I can understand fighting a war on drugs as drug addiction is so devastating. At length I expect some form of accomodation with drug use to result, (for example, legal drug houses where you purchase and use drugs on site). Until that time I expect the war on drugs to continue.
Thx, I think I get where you're coming from now.

With respect, why signal out 'drug addiction'? What about addiction in general? Why not focus the fight on that?

Consider all the things peeps can be addicted to: Drugs, Alcohol, Nicotine, Shopping, Sex, TV, etc, etc, etc. If the focus is on only a couple of those, then the others just get pushed aside and peeps are still getting hurt because of the addiction.

IMO if drugs were made legal, they would be regulated much the same as alcohol & nicotine are. The focus then could be on the 'addiction / abuse' aspect, which in turn could be treated as a health / medical issue and handled accordingly.
TruckinMack wrote:
TheRealWags wrote:
Is it your position that 'racism' can not be used as a reason for anything? Why?

My position is that true White on Black 'Racism' is a rarity in public life. Much, much more common is Black on White 'Racism', Racism that is, by and large, ignored by the media. S--- Eric Holder has said as much as, 'I aint prosecuting a brother!' The current culture is full of p-----s who won't call out Black people for Racism. As a result, my lexicon is set at, 'If it is good enough for them, then it's good enough for me.'
First off, racism is racism, no color need be defined.

That said, I see racism first hand on a regular basis (sadly). People move out of the way, look at someone with disdain, speak rudely, etc, etc,

TruckinMack wrote:
Edit: BTW, what's with your x'd out avatar?
Fixed, thx

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June 25th, 2013, 3:50 pm
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Post Re: The War on Pot Is Both Racist and Expensive, New Report
wjb21ndtown wrote:
Now you're changing the subject... Like I said, RJ provided real reasons for the disparities in arrest rates... And "possession with intent to distribute" is very different than possession... and quantity and paraphernalia have something to do with it as well.
How am I changing the subject?

wjb21ndtown wrote:
You weren't applying any sort of "line of thinking" that I was using. I never said that any race creed or color shouldn't be allowed to do anything illegal, nor be precluded from doing anything legal. All I DID say was that IF one sect of society does engage in illegal activity more so than others, they're going to be punished in a disproportionate way. Similarly, the law takes advantage of and punishes differently those that choose to be uneducated. If one sect of society chooses to remain uneducated, it's going to be disadvantaged as such.
Allow me to quote myself, perhaps you missed it:
Quote:
What you seem to be presenting are stereotypes. Are you advocating that our laws should mirror stereotypes?
in reference to your comment:
Quote:
And RJ correctly pointed out, that a minority is more likely to have sold the drugs, where as a white person is more likely to have purchased a small quantity for personal consumption.
As I said, it appears that you're projecting a stereotype; I was taking your projection and carrying on to other stereotypes.

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June 25th, 2013, 3:54 pm
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