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 Zimmerman 
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Post Re: Zimmerman
njroar wrote:
Actually, I think if Trayvon had ended up living and Zimmerman had died, the Screwdriver and jewelry in his bag, as well as more of his past would have been allowed to be mentioned in court. Also the fact that no bruises were on Trayvon, it would have led to a conviction.

Are you confusing 2 incidents? From reports I've read, it was in an incident at school where he was found to have jewelry and a screwdriver in his bag. He didn't have those on the night in question.

Similarly, wjb makes claims earlier in the thread that Martin had various "thug" pictures on social networks. As I understand it, for a brief period people believed that to be the case but it was discovered it was a different person.

There has been too much disinformation in the other direction, also, but no need to do the same.


July 19th, 2013, 2:05 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman
Yeah, he didn't have the screwdriver/jewelry that night, that happened prior to, and has been used to cast doubt on his character.

I think that if Trayvon had killed Zimmerman, he could've used "Stand Your Ground" to get off. He could've said, "He pointed a gun at me, so I had to tackle him. Then I killed him because I feared for my life."


July 19th, 2013, 2:09 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman
Blueskies wrote:
Yeah, he didn't have the screwdriver/jewelry that night, that happened prior to, and has been used to cast doubt on his character.

I think that if Trayvon had killed Zimmerman, he could've used "Stand Your Ground" to get off. He could've said, "He pointed a gun at me, so I had to tackle him. Then I killed him because I feared for my life."



One problem with this....Zimmerman didn't point the gun at him until he shot him. I HIGHLY doubt Trayvon Martin knowingly attacked a man armed with a handgun. And the idea that Martin would have crossed that much ground with a gun pointed at him, and Zimmerman never fired would have cast some serious doubts on his story.

When it comes down to it, given Martin's history it is VERY reasonable to believe the George Zimmerman was telling the truth when he said that he felt Trayvon Martin was acting suspicious and worthy of his focus. Zimmerman didn't know Martin, so it's not like he just got lucky in assuming he had a chequered past.

If you look at ALL the various facts about Martin, and the story told by Zimmerman, plus the testimony that was given along with the phone transcripts, I believe Zimmerman's story is basically the truth of the matter.

One other thing...the 'Stand Your Ground' law is based on the idea that you are not engaged in criminal activity, and that you have a lawful right to be where you are. With the phone calls Zimmerman made regarding the activity of Martin, and where Martin was, neither of those foundations of the Stand Your Ground law would have protected him. He was trespassing. His activity prior to that was reported as that of trespassing. And lastly, when a gun is pointed at you, would you run towards it or run away. He was hiding in the bushes and could have escaped if he knew a gun was there. Remember, he was on the phone and all this was captured audio evidence. Had a gun been pointed, he likely would have said something to that effect to Rachel Jeanty.

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July 19th, 2013, 3:12 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman
Blueskies wrote:
Yeah, he didn't have the screwdriver/jewelry that night, that happened prior to, and has been used to cast doubt on his character.

I think that if Trayvon had killed Zimmerman, he could've used "Stand Your Ground" to get off. He could've said, "He pointed a gun at me, so I had to tackle him. Then I killed him because I feared for my life."


It doesn't work that way. You can't attack someone, and then claim that their pulling of a gun on you caused you to fear your life. Even if Zimmerman felt threatened and pulled a gun early, and pointed it at Martin, it still doesn't give Martin the right to tackle Zimmerman.

The law allows you to a) "stand your ground," or to b) use reasonable force to stop an attack. It doesn't allow you to escalate a confrontation.


July 19th, 2013, 3:21 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman
m2karateman wrote:
Blueskies wrote:
Yeah, he didn't have the screwdriver/jewelry that night, that happened prior to, and has been used to cast doubt on his character.

I think that if Trayvon had killed Zimmerman, he could've used "Stand Your Ground" to get off. He could've said, "He pointed a gun at me, so I had to tackle him. Then I killed him because I feared for my life."



One problem with this....Zimmerman didn't point the gun at him until he shot him. I HIGHLY doubt Trayvon Martin knowingly attacked a man armed with a handgun. And the idea that Martin would have crossed that much ground with a gun pointed at him, and Zimmerman never fired would have cast some serious doubts on his story.

When it comes down to it, given Martin's history it is VERY reasonable to believe the George Zimmerman was telling the truth when he said that he felt Trayvon Martin was acting suspicious and worthy of his focus. Zimmerman didn't know Martin, so it's not like he just got lucky in assuming he had a chequered past.

If you look at ALL the various facts about Martin, and the story told by Zimmerman, plus the testimony that was given along with the phone transcripts, I believe Zimmerman's story is basically the truth of the matter.

One other thing...the 'Stand Your Ground' law is based on the idea that you are not engaged in criminal activity, and that you have a lawful right to be where you are. With the phone calls Zimmerman made regarding the activity of Martin, and where Martin was, neither of those foundations of the Stand Your Ground law would have protected him. He was trespassing. His activity prior to that was reported as that of trespassing. And lastly, when a gun is pointed at you, would you run towards it or run away. He was hiding in the bushes and could have escaped if he knew a gun was there. Remember, he was on the phone and all this was captured audio evidence. Had a gun been pointed, he likely would have said something to that effect to Rachel Jeanty.


Was he trespassing? If you watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGaNK8hN0tA

It shows that subdivision had a weird setup unlike anything I've seen before. Namely, a sidewalk that ran through the backyard of all the homes. Trayvon's body was found partly on said sidewalk, meaning that the confrontation likely occurred on (or within a foot of) a sidewalk.

In that case, the Stand Your Ground Law would've applied, because he was not trespassing during the confrontation.

Moreover, no one knows what happened when they confronted each other. You can choose to believe Zimmerman's story if you want, but he could be lying. Likewise, if Trayvon had been the one to survive, you could choose to doubt his story, but like with Zimmerman, there simply wouldn't be any evidence to assume he was guilty.

There are so many scenarios one could cook up. He could've said Zimmerman came up to him, attempted to punch him, they got into a tussle, and when Trayvon saw Zimmerman just reaching for his gun, he feared for his life and so he killed him. He could've said he saw too many action movies, and was compelled to try to tackle him when Zimmerman pulled his gun out from 4 feet away.

The point I'm making is that without a third person who saw exactly how the confrontation went, either guy could've killed the other and got off.

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It doesn't work that way. You can't attack someone, and then claim that their pulling of a gun on you caused you to fear your life. Even if Zimmerman felt threatened and pulled a gun early, and pointed it at Martin, it still doesn't give Martin the right to tackle Zimmerman.


As far as I know, the only evidence that says Trayvon attacked Zimmerman was Zimmerman's side of the story. If Trayvon had killed Zimmerman, I'm sure the story would've been very different.


July 19th, 2013, 4:42 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman
First, yes I was wrong, the backpack with jewelry and screwdriver was from an earlier incident. I think the fact he was suspended but his parents claim they didn't know about it speaks volumes.

Blue, the trespassing is what brought suspicion. He was in the backyard, not sidewalk, and looking in windows. That's why 911 was called and Zimmerman was observing him. And the initial punch took place while Zimmerman was on the sidewalk, so that places Trayvon off of it. The spots that evidence fell, (ie the keys and flashlight) all line up with the timeline as well as Zimmerman's story.

As for evidence of first attack, that's evidenced by the bruising, broken nose and lacerations on Zimmerman. I know someone said that the reason no bruises were on Martin because of death, that's false. Bruises can show up for two days. They can't be created after death, but they can still appear from prior damage.

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Moreover, no one knows what happened when they confronted each other.


Reasonable doubt. The difference being that Trayvon's history would have been relevant had he killed Zimmerman. A dismissed battery charge on Zimmerman was tried to be made relevant, but failed. Having been caught with Jewelry and screwdriver in the past, while killing a neighborhood watch in a neighborhood that had been robbed 8 times in the previous year would have brought the hammer down on Martin.

It would be much easier to disprove self defense against Martin than it was against Zimmerman. The defense doesn't have to prove it, the State has to disprove it. And zero bruising while other guy has a lot, makes it easier to paint a picture that disproves it or at least moves it out of the reasonable doubt area. Self defense requires a "reasonable" fear of great bodily injury. Following doesn't reach that goal. The small amounts of THC in his system would have been used as well since while some can get aggressive, paranoia is much more common. His self defense case would have never qualified for Stand Your Ground, and would have failed in court for Self Defense as well.


July 19th, 2013, 7:20 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman
njroar wrote:
First, yes I was wrong, the backpack with jewelry and screwdriver was from an earlier incident. I think the fact he was suspended but his parents claim they didn't know about it speaks volumes.

Blue, the trespassing is what brought suspicion. He was in the backyard, not sidewalk, and looking in windows. That's why 911 was called and Zimmerman was observing him. And the initial punch took place while Zimmerman was on the sidewalk, so that places Trayvon off of it. The spots that evidence fell, (ie the keys and flashlight) all line up with the timeline as well as Zimmerman's story.

As for evidence of first attack, that's evidenced by the bruising, broken nose and lacerations on Zimmerman. I know someone said that the reason no bruises were on Martin because of death, that's false. Bruises can show up for two days. They can't be created after death, but they can still appear from prior damage.

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Moreover, no one knows what happened when they confronted each other.


Reasonable doubt. The difference being that Trayvon's history would have been relevant had he killed Zimmerman. A dismissed battery charge on Zimmerman was tried to be made relevant, but failed. Having been caught with Jewelry and screwdriver in the past, while killing a neighborhood watch in a neighborhood that had been robbed 8 times in the previous year would have brought the hammer down on Martin.

It would be much easier to disprove self defense against Martin than it was against Zimmerman. The defense doesn't have to prove it, the State has to disprove it. And zero bruising while other guy has a lot, makes it easier to paint a picture that disproves it or at least moves it out of the reasonable doubt area. Self defense requires a "reasonable" fear of great bodily injury. Following doesn't reach that goal. The small amounts of THC in his system would have been used as well since while some can get aggressive, paranoia is much more common. His self defense case would have never qualified for Stand Your Ground, and would have failed in court for Self Defense as well.


I agree completely.


July 20th, 2013, 4:00 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman
wjb21ndtown wrote:
TheRealWags wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
I did it all the time as a kid too, but I didn't look in people's windows, and... guess what? I HAVE been followed, yelled at by neighbors, chased down and asked "what was I doing in that back yard?" All I was doing was hopping a fence to save me 15-20 min walk to get to a friend's house, I explained my actions, and went about my business. I was never rude upon being confronted, and I certainly never attacked anyone that was questioning me. I have eluded cops and pursuers as a game... It was fun. I rarely got caught when I was chased, but even if I did, I was rarely doing anything wrong, and I certainly never did anything to threaten my pursuers. I always just explained myself and went about my business, as MOST NORMAL INNOCENT KIDS DO.
Not intending to derail this thread even further, but something I heard recently that may pertain to this... Is it possible for a person of one race to fully understand, comprehend, know, etc what its like for a person of another race?

For example: Is it possible for me, as a white male from a middle-class family in a small MI town, to know or fully understand what life is really like for a black male from the South?

On the surface, I'd like to say, sure its possible. I could move to the same location, live in the same city, talk to the same people, etc. But would I really 'know' what its like to be a black male? The more I think about it, the more I don't think it is possible to actually 'know'; possibly the closest I could come would be to empathize and 'try' to understand. Perhaps this would be better as a new thread............
I don't think it is a derailment of the thread, in fact, I think it lies at the very heart of the thread...

That said, perhaps it's not likely to know or understand what life is like for someone that is not similarly situated. That said, we don't need to. This isn't about understanding Martin, this is about understanding and following a set of laws that all of us need to live by, regardless of race, creed or socioeconomic status.
I agree, to an extent, but what if said laws are not being equally enforced? Imagine, if you can, for your entire life you have people look at you like you're suspicious of something. Imagine that you grew up in a society where one of the first things someone might think of if they see you running, is that you're guilty of something. Some say that TM could / should have just run away; but couldn't that been a sign of guilt? I mean, why run if you have nothing to hide, right?

Just some food for thought; something I think we all should ponder and discuss.

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July 22nd, 2013, 9:47 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman
TheRealWags wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
TheRealWags wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
I did it all the time as a kid too, but I didn't look in people's windows, and... guess what? I HAVE been followed, yelled at by neighbors, chased down and asked "what was I doing in that back yard?" All I was doing was hopping a fence to save me 15-20 min walk to get to a friend's house, I explained my actions, and went about my business. I was never rude upon being confronted, and I certainly never attacked anyone that was questioning me. I have eluded cops and pursuers as a game... It was fun. I rarely got caught when I was chased, but even if I did, I was rarely doing anything wrong, and I certainly never did anything to threaten my pursuers. I always just explained myself and went about my business, as MOST NORMAL INNOCENT KIDS DO.
Not intending to derail this thread even further, but something I heard recently that may pertain to this... Is it possible for a person of one race to fully understand, comprehend, know, etc what its like for a person of another race?

For example: Is it possible for me, as a white male from a middle-class family in a small MI town, to know or fully understand what life is really like for a black male from the South?

On the surface, I'd like to say, sure its possible. I could move to the same location, live in the same city, talk to the same people, etc. But would I really 'know' what its like to be a black male? The more I think about it, the more I don't think it is possible to actually 'know'; possibly the closest I could come would be to empathize and 'try' to understand. Perhaps this would be better as a new thread............
I don't think it is a derailment of the thread, in fact, I think it lies at the very heart of the thread...

That said, perhaps it's not likely to know or understand what life is like for someone that is not similarly situated. That said, we don't need to. This isn't about understanding Martin, this is about understanding and following a set of laws that all of us need to live by, regardless of race, creed or socioeconomic status.
I agree, to an extent, but what if said laws are not being equally enforced? Imagine, if you can, for your entire life you have people look at you like you're suspicious of something. Imagine that you grew up in a society where one of the first things someone might think of if they see you running, is that you're guilty of something. Some say that TM could / should have just run away; but couldn't that been a sign of guilt? I mean, why run if you have nothing to hide, right?

Just some food for thought; something I think we all should ponder and discuss.


As a youth who had long hair, wore ripped up jeans an flannel shirts with the sleeves ripped off year round, wags, I can say yes i know how it feels Wags. I once stopped in the middle of the night to help an old black man change his tire in the middle of the winter and damn near scared the life out of him untill he finally figured out tht I was there to help. (it's dark I had a A very large winter coat, exaggerating my size, pantera was blaring a lil too loud out of my car...I don't blaim him for his initial fear)

But saying yes to that question does not make me any kind of victim. The only way other people's acts can victimize me is if I let it bother me. I had far too much self confidence to give 2craps about what people I didn't even know, thought about me. Your question leads to nothing more than an excuse to hide behind. An excuse to be resentful. Nothing more.

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July 22nd, 2013, 10:08 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman
wjb21ndtown wrote:
I always just explained myself and went about my business, as MOST NORMAL INNOCENT KIDS DO.


Actually, that is what most normal WHITE kids do. I'm sorry, but if you stop a BLACK kid (innocent or not), and they are going to challenge you more. This has to do with their culture, this has to do with being profiled consistently.

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July 22nd, 2013, 10:17 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman
Pablo wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
I always just explained myself and went about my business, as MOST NORMAL INNOCENT KIDS DO.
Actually, that is what most normal WHITE kids do. I'm sorry, but if you stop a BLACK kid (innocent or not), and they are going to challenge you more. This has to do with their culture, this has to do with being profiled consistently.
This is what I was trying to get at, thanks Pablo

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July 22nd, 2013, 10:41 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman
Pablo wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
I always just explained myself and went about my business, as MOST NORMAL INNOCENT KIDS DO.


Actually, that is what most normal WHITE kids do. I'm sorry, but if you stop a BLACK kid (innocent or not), and they are going to challenge you more. This has to do with their culture, this has to do with being profiled consistently.


Which begs the question....why, in this day and age, are blacks profiled? Whose fault is that? Is it STRICTLY because whites are racist? Or does it have to do more with the FACT that a small percentage of our society is responsible for an inordinately large portion of crime in this country?

Profiling is based, I feel, on reasonable suspicion. No matter what anybody says, Middle Eastern people are going to be looked at with great suspicion at airports, bus terminals, etc. because nearly every terrorist act is performed by someone of that descent. If they aren't from there, then they have converted to Islam and have been brainwashed into thinking along the same lines.

You read it in the newspaper everyday. Those urban areas that are predominantly black are the most crime ridden areas of this country. And don't blame the fact that they are living in poverty. First off, some of the people CHOOSE (yes, CHOOSE) to live that way. There are areas of the south that are predominantly white, and are just as impoverished, if not more so, than the large cities. The crime in those areas are nothing like what it is in Chicago, Detroit, Flint, Atlanta, etc.

My point is this: stereotypes are developed based on realities, like it or not. Profiling happens because the odds are that a black kid in a white neighborhood is more likely committing a crime than a white kid in a black neighborhood. It is supported by FACTS, based on FBI crime statistics. It doesn't mean all blacks are criminals, and that all white people are angels, and that all Middle Eastern people have bombs strapped to their chests. But to say that people are being 'unfairly' profiled is hogwash. If people don't want to be profiled, then it is high time those communities step up to the plate and do something about it. Rather than having someone racist like Al Sharpton or Louis Farahkhan telling them that all their problems stem from white people, they should be looking at what is happening in their communities and stop turning a blind eye to it. Rather than blindly attacking a guy because he shot a teenager in another state, they should be more worried about the 100 other black kids that died across the country that same month at the hands of other black teenagers.

When it comes down to it, most black people in this country are profiling George Zimmerman no less than George Zimmerman profiled Trayvon Martin. George Zimmerman just happened to be right....Martin was a criminal and the odds are favorable that he was up to no good that night. It doesn't mean Martin deserved to die. But Zimmerman did have a right to protect himself.

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July 23rd, 2013, 8:40 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman
TheRealWags wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
TheRealWags wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
I did it all the time as a kid too, but I didn't look in people's windows, and... guess what? I HAVE been followed, yelled at by neighbors, chased down and asked "what was I doing in that back yard?" All I was doing was hopping a fence to save me 15-20 min walk to get to a friend's house, I explained my actions, and went about my business. I was never rude upon being confronted, and I certainly never attacked anyone that was questioning me. I have eluded cops and pursuers as a game... It was fun. I rarely got caught when I was chased, but even if I did, I was rarely doing anything wrong, and I certainly never did anything to threaten my pursuers. I always just explained myself and went about my business, as MOST NORMAL INNOCENT KIDS DO.
Not intending to derail this thread even further, but something I heard recently that may pertain to this... Is it possible for a person of one race to fully understand, comprehend, know, etc what its like for a person of another race?

For example: Is it possible for me, as a white male from a middle-class family in a small MI town, to know or fully understand what life is really like for a black male from the South?

On the surface, I'd like to say, sure its possible. I could move to the same location, live in the same city, talk to the same people, etc. But would I really 'know' what its like to be a black male? The more I think about it, the more I don't think it is possible to actually 'know'; possibly the closest I could come would be to empathize and 'try' to understand. Perhaps this would be better as a new thread............
I don't think it is a derailment of the thread, in fact, I think it lies at the very heart of the thread...

That said, perhaps it's not likely to know or understand what life is like for someone that is not similarly situated. That said, we don't need to. This isn't about understanding Martin, this is about understanding and following a set of laws that all of us need to live by, regardless of race, creed or socioeconomic status.
I agree, to an extent, but what if said laws are not being equally enforced? Imagine, if you can, for your entire life you have people look at you like you're suspicious of something. Imagine that you grew up in a society where one of the first things someone might think of if they see you running, is that you're guilty of something. Some say that TM could / should have just run away; but couldn't that been a sign of guilt? I mean, why run if you have nothing to hide, right?

Just some food for thought; something I think we all should ponder and discuss.


Ok, so he runs, looks guilty, lives, and gets to tell his side of the story. What's the issue?


July 24th, 2013, 1:22 am
Post Re: Zimmerman
Pablo wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
I always just explained myself and went about my business, as MOST NORMAL INNOCENT KIDS DO.


Actually, that is what most normal WHITE kids do. I'm sorry, but if you stop a BLACK kid (innocent or not), and they are going to challenge you more. This has to do with their culture, this has to do with being profiled consistently.


That's BS... Middle class and wealthy black kids do the same. It's ghetto impoverished people (black and white) that get confrontational when they're stopped, and for good reason, they're usually doing something wrong.


July 24th, 2013, 1:24 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman
Pablo wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
I always just explained myself and went about my business, as MOST NORMAL INNOCENT KIDS DO.


Actually, that is what most normal WHITE kids do. I'm sorry, but if you stop a BLACK kid (innocent or not), and they are going to challenge you more. This has to do with their culture, this has to do with being profiled consistently.

Being White is not a privilege. It is a skin color. It is incredibly racist to have different standards for different people just because of their skin color.

I used to live in Detroit. It was common for Black people to stop me and ask what a White boy was doing in their neighborhood. I never had a problem. The answer was virtually always, 'Going from point A to point B'. I never felt victimized because I was stalked and profiled. I was a stranger and they wanted to know what I was doing there. Good for them.

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July 24th, 2013, 5:50 am
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