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Post Re: 53 seconds
m2karateman wrote:
thelomasbrowns wrote:
And let's be honest, it's not exactly 'going out on a limb' to predict a Lions head coach is going to fail. :lol: Some of us just try to be optimistic because the alternative is unending despair. dontknow.gif


It wasn't a simple matter of just saying 'he's going to fail'. He made many statements about Schwartz being out of his element, not controlling the penalties, not doing well with clock and game management.

As I said, I had many disagreements with WJB over the years. But I'll give the man his due credit. Even immediately after the 10-6 season, he was stating that Schwartz needed to go (along with Mayhew), and many of us were railing on him saying he didn't know what he was talking about.

Turns out, he just may have had more insight than we gave him credit for. And by your statement, it seems you still aren't willing to give him that credit.


No, history shows that always 'betting on black' is a good bet to make with this franchise. If you say a player is a bad pick, or a coach is a bad coach, 9 times out of 10 this team will prove you right. I don't think this means wjb is a great football mind. I just think it means he knows how to play the odds.

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September 16th, 2013, 12:11 pm
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Post Re: 53 seconds
thelomasbrowns wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
thelomasbrowns wrote:
And let's be honest, it's not exactly 'going out on a limb' to predict a Lions head coach is going to fail. :lol: Some of us just try to be optimistic because the alternative is unending despair. dontknow.gif


It wasn't a simple matter of just saying 'he's going to fail'. He made many statements about Schwartz being out of his element, not controlling the penalties, not doing well with clock and game management.

As I said, I had many disagreements with WJB over the years. But I'll give the man his due credit. Even immediately after the 10-6 season, he was stating that Schwartz needed to go (along with Mayhew), and many of us were railing on him saying he didn't know what he was talking about.

Turns out, he just may have had more insight than we gave him credit for. And by your statement, it seems you still aren't willing to give him that credit.


No, history shows that always 'betting on black' is a good bet to make with this franchise. If you say a player is a bad pick, or a coach is a bad coach, 9 times out of 10 this team will prove you right. I don't think this means wjb is a great football mind. I just think it means he knows how to play the odds.


That's a cop out. I'll just leave it at that, as this is now becoming a hijacking.

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September 16th, 2013, 12:32 pm
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Post Re: 53 seconds
wjb was one of the most insightful people on this board.

He also had zero tolerance of any other opinion. It killed the discussion.

I'd love to see the guy back here if he was more tolerant and less aggressive in his approach. His insight is great. But I'd take a board where people at least feel able to say stuff, over one with one guy repeating ad nauseum, any day.


September 16th, 2013, 4:45 pm
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Post Re: 53 seconds
Agreed about WJB Being right a decent amount, but specifically in his Schwartz commentary.

I Personally think Mayhew has done OK at best, and could be made to look better given a better coach, but Schwartz has been below average. Id Be ok with Both of them Leaving, but this game re-emphasized the issues with Schwartz re: Clock management and Discipline and Linehan in re: Playcalling in certain situations. Linehan doesnt create, he just does good when he has stacked good talent, and does poor when he doesnt (Bush/Best being In or Out of Games). So many other OCs would thank their lucky stars to have Staff, Cj, et al, but we just repeatedly say we Must have the speed back to go, and speed backs get injured, and if bush is out even part of this seaosn its another 1 down the tubes because "the missing 1 piece". Every team is missing 1 (or more) pieces, deal with it, no excuses.


September 16th, 2013, 5:03 pm
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Post Re: 53 seconds
how come none of the detroit media hasdiscussed schwartz' and linehan's horrible clock management?

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September 16th, 2013, 5:10 pm
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Post Re: 53 seconds
Killwill25 wrote:
how come none of the detroit media hasdiscussed schwartz' and linehan's horrible clock management?


Because there were other issues. I'm not saying that folding before the half ends isn't one of them, but still.


September 16th, 2013, 8:32 pm
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Post Re: 53 seconds
Hystrix wrote:
Killwill25 wrote:
how come none of the detroit media hasdiscussed schwartz' and linehan's horrible clock management?


Because there were other issues. I'm not saying that folding before the half ends isn't one of them, but still.
r

It doesn't matter if there were other issues. I understand what you are saying, but the media should be picking up on that obvious lack of killer instinct. Too often in the past Schwartz has played to protect a lead rather to increase it. Playing to not lose is not playing to win. Schwartz has a history of this, and it has never served him well in the past. It's a real shame and pretty pathetic when everyday fans point out something so obvious, and the media conveniently decides to ignore it.

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September 16th, 2013, 9:14 pm
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Post Re: 53 seconds
regularjoe12 wrote:
thelomasbrowns wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
And those of you who have, throughout the past few seasons, bashed WJB because he said Schwartz was a sh*tty coach, need to start lining up and apologizing.


To give just one example, he also thought Martin was a terrible draft pick. We're all going to call some things and be off on others; the difference is that wjb thought he was always right and would bash and belittle others who disagreed with him.

no the REAL problem is he'd repeat himself over and over again, with no reguards to the actual topic. He was right about a bunch of things, but being right wasnt enough to keep him from beating the crap out of a horse that died months ago.


but TO GET BACK ON TOPIC, i have considered this Swartz's make or break year, and i think it's looking like a break. to waste 53 seconds left with 3 T.O. when AR was getting the ball at halftime is just obsurd. the Offense scored a TD on it's last 2 drives, why the heck do you not at least ATTEMPT a FG. I'm with Sly...disgusting.

and Im also going to throw in 9 penalties for over 100 yards. If we have been addressing deiscapline for over 2 years, why is it now showing if he is such a good coach??

The answer has become obvuious sadly, and i hope to high hell that the F.O. recognizes it.


That's what I wanted this season to be also. Schwartz's make or break year. Simply because we can not just keep changing coaches every 3 years and expect anything to change. You change a coach and the vast majority of the time you end up changing offensive and defensive systems and then players that no longer fit what we are running. And the whole process starts all over again. The San Francisco experience with Harbaugh is so rare, that that is the only 1 I can think of that has ever happened like that.
And just changing to a guy that is a proven winner doesn't work either. Bobby Ross? He is the guy that started the dismantling that lead to 0-16. He drove Barry Sanders into retirement. Mooch? He stunk up the joint around here.


September 16th, 2013, 10:29 pm
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Post Re: 53 seconds
BillySims wrote:
That's what I wanted this season to be also. Schwartz's make or break year. Simply because we can not just keep changing coaches every 3 years and expect anything to change. You change a coach and the vast majority of the time you end up changing offensive and defensive systems and then players that no longer fit what we are running. And the whole process starts all over again. The San Francisco experience with Harbaugh is so rare, that that is the only 1 I can think of that has ever happened like that.
And just changing to a guy that is a proven winner doesn't work either. Bobby Ross? He is the guy that started the dismantling that lead to 0-16. He drove Barry Sanders into retirement. Mooch? He stunk up the joint around here.


Billy,

To a certain extent I agree with some of the things you are saying. However, it is up to the General Manager to find the right fit for the coach to work with the talent that's currently on the roster, in my opinion. These teams that hire coaches who bring in completely different offensive and defensive systems when it isn't a lack of talent on the roster, but instead an issue with the coaching...I'll never understand that approach.

The Lions have been a 4-3 team forever. No reason to change that, since that base system is proven and variations can be used with the current talent on the roster. I think we definitely need some upgrades at linebacker and some added depth at corner. I think we're OK with safety until Glover Quin proves otherwise. Delmas is fragile, but is good when in there. I think our depth at safety is suitable, if nothing else but for their ability on special teams as well as not making too many mistakes when asked to work on defense. I think we're pretty much set on the defensive line.

As for offensively, I think we desperately need quality depth at wide receiver, and obviously a new starting tight end. We could use a new starting center with more size to help the running game. Finally, I think we need a true starting running back. Bush is better as a change of pace, 3rd down back. Our offensive line is not built to support his skillset for misdirection, zone and off tackle plays. More athleticism on the offensive line would mean an overhaul of the line, and I don't think that's necessary. Given who is on our offensive line, I would prefer we got a big back who is a north south runner as our starter. LeShoure we supposed to be that guy, but hasn't panned out. I'd prefer to see someone like Joique Bell, but with maybe a little more size and speed. Stafford, as much as people blast him, is on the verge of being an elite QB. He makes throws that few QBs in the league can make, and often times it is the fault of the receivers not getting separation that forces him to have to thread the needle and forcing throws he probably shouldn't, but needs to make the plays.

What it boils down to, is that this team has talent. And I do believe that most of the players are trying to do the best they can. Unfortunately, I think they are being lead by a coach that just doesn't get it, and he has two coordinators that lack true imagination and the ability to make adjustments on the fly. I agree that continuity holds much weight in the NFL, and the in depth knowledge of a particular coaches system can improve things. But in the end, if the system sucks, it sucks, regardless of who is playing within it. And if the head coach doesn't get the best from his talent, he needs to be let go.

While I agree that the situation in San Fran doesn't happen that often, I believe the Lions are pretty close to being there, talent wise. A good draft or two would put them there. San Fran was a talented roster with an uninspiring coach. I believe the Lions are playing uninspired football, and feel no urgency to play well for Schwartz.

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September 17th, 2013, 10:16 pm
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Post Re: 53 seconds
WJB was right only because he was lucky. Whatever the Lions did, he'd bash it: Bad coach, bad GM, bad players, bad draft, bad play calling, whatever. He never once praised anything the Lions did. He even thought CJ was a crappy player. For the life of me, I can not remember a single thing about the Lions that he ever praised.

If you're going to consistently take the negative side of the argument, you're going to be "right" at least half the time. With the Lions, more than half, because it's a historically bad franchise.

EDIT: On the topic of Schwartz -- he did what he could, and now it's time to go. I still think he was a great hire at the time, but sometimes you just need different coaching staffs for different periods of transformation.


September 18th, 2013, 2:20 am
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Post Re: 53 seconds
I was always pretty sure that WJB was Drew Sharp. :wink:


September 18th, 2013, 8:53 am
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Post Re: 53 seconds
Wackadoo wrote:
I was always pretty sure that WJB was Drew Sharp. :wink:


LOL. I agree.


September 18th, 2013, 11:36 am
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Post Re: 53 seconds
m2karateman wrote:

Billy,

To a certain extent I agree with some of the things you are saying. However, it is up to the General Manager to find the right fit for the coach to work with the talent that's currently on the roster, in my opinion. These teams that hire coaches who bring in completely different offensive and defensive systems when it isn't a lack of talent on the roster, but instead an issue with the coaching...I'll never understand that approach.

The Lions have been a 4-3 team forever. No reason to change that, since that base system is proven and variations can be used with the current talent on the roster. I think we definitely need some upgrades at linebacker and some added depth at corner. I think we're OK with safety until Glover Quin proves otherwise. Delmas is fragile, but is good when in there. I think our depth at safety is suitable, if nothing else but for their ability on special teams as well as not making too many mistakes when asked to work on defense. I think we're pretty much set on the defensive line.

As for offensively, I think we desperately need quality depth at wide receiver, and obviously a new starting tight end. We could use a new starting center with more size to help the running game. Finally, I think we need a true starting running back. Bush is better as a change of pace, 3rd down back. Our offensive line is not built to support his skillset for misdirection, zone and off tackle plays. More athleticism on the offensive line would mean an overhaul of the line, and I don't think that's necessary. Given who is on our offensive line, I would prefer we got a big back who is a north south runner as our starter. LeShoure we supposed to be that guy, but hasn't panned out. I'd prefer to see someone like Joique Bell, but with maybe a little more size and speed. Stafford, as much as people blast him, is on the verge of being an elite QB. He makes throws that few QBs in the league can make, and often times it is the fault of the receivers not getting separation that forces him to have to thread the needle and forcing throws he probably shouldn't, but needs to make the plays.

What it boils down to, is that this team has talent. And I do believe that most of the players are trying to do the best they can. Unfortunately, I think they are being lead by a coach that just doesn't get it, and he has two coordinators that lack true imagination and the ability to make adjustments on the fly. I agree that continuity holds much weight in the NFL, and the in depth knowledge of a particular coaches system can improve things. But in the end, if the system sucks, it sucks, regardless of who is playing within it. And if the head coach doesn't get the best from his talent, he needs to be let go.

While I agree that the situation in San Fran doesn't happen that often, I believe the Lions are pretty close to being there, talent wise. A good draft or two would put them there. San Fran was a talented roster with an uninspiring coach. I believe the Lions are playing uninspired football, and feel no urgency to play well for Schwartz.


Very good post and I agree with all of it. The one caveat is I could see them moving to a 3-4 for the right coach (Say the opportunity to hire Cowher came along). Our DEs Minus willie young (who should be cut anyways) all have the size to Play a 3-4 DE (270+) anbd it would mean an overhaul of the LBS (we would just need 2 new LBs instead of 1 new DE). I Could see it happening. We wouldnt have a 320+ NT to be just a hog, but I have faith that a 3 man line of Suh - Fairley - Ansah could handle the normal DT-DE duties with Jason Jones rotating. Please note, Im not saying I want to go 3-4 , just saying i think they should be open to it with right coach.


September 18th, 2013, 3:06 pm
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Post Re: 53 seconds
m2karateman wrote:
Hystrix wrote:
Killwill25 wrote:
how come none of the detroit media hasdiscussed schwartz' and linehan's horrible clock management?


Because there were other issues. I'm not saying that folding before the half ends isn't one of them, but still.
r

It doesn't matter if there were other issues. I understand what you are saying, but the media should be picking up on that obvious lack of killer instinct. Too often in the past Schwartz has played to protect a lead rather to increase it. Playing to not lose is not playing to win. Schwartz has a history of this, and it has never served him well in the past. It's a real shame and pretty pathetic when everyday fans point out something so obvious, and the media conveniently decides to ignore it.

right

we arent losing games due to Suh's intensity in practice

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September 18th, 2013, 4:01 pm
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Post Re: 53 seconds
DJ-B wrote:
m2karateman wrote:

Billy,

To a certain extent I agree with some of the things you are saying. However, it is up to the General Manager to find the right fit for the coach to work with the talent that's currently on the roster, in my opinion. These teams that hire coaches who bring in completely different offensive and defensive systems when it isn't a lack of talent on the roster, but instead an issue with the coaching...I'll never understand that approach.

The Lions have been a 4-3 team forever. No reason to change that, since that base system is proven and variations can be used with the current talent on the roster. I think we definitely need some upgrades at linebacker and some added depth at corner. I think we're OK with safety until Glover Quin proves otherwise. Delmas is fragile, but is good when in there. I think our depth at safety is suitable, if nothing else but for their ability on special teams as well as not making too many mistakes when asked to work on defense. I think we're pretty much set on the defensive line.

As for offensively, I think we desperately need quality depth at wide receiver, and obviously a new starting tight end. We could use a new starting center with more size to help the running game. Finally, I think we need a true starting running back. Bush is better as a change of pace, 3rd down back. Our offensive line is not built to support his skillset for misdirection, zone and off tackle plays. More athleticism on the offensive line would mean an overhaul of the line, and I don't think that's necessary. Given who is on our offensive line, I would prefer we got a big back who is a north south runner as our starter. LeShoure we supposed to be that guy, but hasn't panned out. I'd prefer to see someone like Joique Bell, but with maybe a little more size and speed. Stafford, as much as people blast him, is on the verge of being an elite QB. He makes throws that few QBs in the league can make, and often times it is the fault of the receivers not getting separation that forces him to have to thread the needle and forcing throws he probably shouldn't, but needs to make the plays.

What it boils down to, is that this team has talent. And I do believe that most of the players are trying to do the best they can. Unfortunately, I think they are being lead by a coach that just doesn't get it, and he has two coordinators that lack true imagination and the ability to make adjustments on the fly. I agree that continuity holds much weight in the NFL, and the in depth knowledge of a particular coaches system can improve things. But in the end, if the system sucks, it sucks, regardless of who is playing within it. And if the head coach doesn't get the best from his talent, he needs to be let go.

While I agree that the situation in San Fran doesn't happen that often, I believe the Lions are pretty close to being there, talent wise. A good draft or two would put them there. San Fran was a talented roster with an uninspiring coach. I believe the Lions are playing uninspired football, and feel no urgency to play well for Schwartz.


Very good post and I agree with all of it. The one caveat is I could see them moving to a 3-4 for the right coach (Say the opportunity to hire Cowher came along). Our DEs Minus willie young (who should be cut anyways) all have the size to Play a 3-4 DE (270+) anbd it would mean an overhaul of the LBS (we would just need 2 new LBs instead of 1 new DE). I Could see it happening. We wouldnt have a 320+ NT to be just a hog, but I have faith that a 3 man line of Suh - Fairley - Ansah could handle the normal DT-DE duties with Jason Jones rotating. Please note, Im not saying I want to go 3-4 , just saying i think they should be open to it with right coach.


I agree, the Lions could move to a 3-4 with just some few needs required. First off, I don't agree that Ansah would be a DE in the 3-4 defense. With his athletic skill, he makes the move to OLB in a 3-4. Fairley and Suh move to DE spots, with Jones and Idonije backing them up. Justin Bannan likely becomes a starter at NT, with Mosely his backup. Other OLBs would be Willie Young (regardless if you like him, he's got the correct build for it) and Devin Taylor. Levy moves inside, with Tulloch, Lewis, McIntosh and Whitehead. That means we need another OLB and probably another swing DL that can either play NT or DE.

That would be the move with the current roster. Of course, in all likelihood a major overhaul would take place because neither Young nor Taylor have the proper skills to be OLBs in the 3-4. Bannan isn't a true NT and neither is Mosely. I think Suh and Fairley would EXCEL at the DE position in the 3-4, provided the right OLBs and NT are in place.

My point was, I don't think the idea of getting rid of Schwartz at this point means the team is 'starting over'. That position needs an upgrade, no different than any roster position being held by a low performer.

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September 18th, 2013, 9:37 pm
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