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 Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity. 
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
njroar wrote:
The arguments of science are crushed by the weight of lack of science when it comes to creation also. Remember, science requires that something can be tested and repeated in order to be proven. Science can not create life, so it's not something that is proven by either side. Hence it's an argument that can't be won. Science is in the blind, just as we are blind to what happened back then.

Yes, people who believe in creation rely on blind faith about what happened. But don't try to say science has crushed any ideas of it being possible, because science can't reach a determination of facts either. Science can't and won't rely on blind faith to state an opinion, which is what most anti-creationist believers regurgitate and claim it's science.

And WFC, when you hear stories like the footprints that sound amazing, look around to see that other publications (legitimate ones) acknowledge the findings as well. The sources of the stories aren't always the best. I make sure to read multiple versions of the same story even for current news that is being covered by everyone.


Life is testable, you yourself are an example of it. Just because you can't recreate something doesn't mean you can't acknowledge it's existence when it's right in front of you.

NJ not to be a pain, but can you re state that part of your post, I keep reading it but can't seem to understand what you were saying in that section.

I totally agree about comparing and searching for multiple sources. Almost every if not all of the ideas WFC brings up come directly from creationist sources with no other sources to acknowledge the claims.


September 27th, 2013, 11:50 am
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
Creation relies on faith. Science has never and will never be able to take a stance on creation or the beginning of life because it can't take a stance based on things it can't test and retest.

And yes, acknowledging something that happened or what you believe happened can fall under the realm of science, but until you can physically test and resets it, it's only a hypothesis. Life is a theory. How life began is only a hypothesis, so it's completely still up in the air.


September 27th, 2013, 1:02 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
njroar wrote:
Creation relies on faith. Science has never and will never be able to take a stance on creation or the beginning of life because it can't take a stance based on things it can't test and retest.

And yes, acknowledging something that happened or what you believe happened can fall under the realm of science, but until you can physically test and resets it, it's only a hypothesis. Life is a theory. How life began is only a hypothesis, so it's completely still up in the air.


Science has always taken a stance on Creationism and it's that the evidence they have found so far of when the world was created does not reflect the ideas in Creationism.

Life isn't a theory it's something we can see. Creature live and die every day. Anyone that has killed something has tested life. The hows and whys of life are theories, but life is not.


September 27th, 2013, 1:57 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
NJ,
I'd love to "research" the things I've found but haven't a clue where. On top of that most of the time I have heard about these stories, I'm not in a position to record where the info comes from. For example the story on the "worm" came from a recent scientific discovery, and I tried hard to search for it using Google and Bing, and nothing came up.

It's funny that Rao makes his point about the Creationist information as if somehow, because they are creationist they are automatically wrong. Dr. Benjamin Scripture, is a zoologist, biology, and one other area I forget the name of. But automatically, because he's in support of Creationism, he doesn't "count." Why? What makes his training and opinion any less than those who believe otherwise?

To Pablo's point: Facts do obscure the truth. Case in point, it's a documented fact that glaciers are melting, and temperatures are rising, and that Al Gore and his minions are using Global Warming as a control tactic and money grab. However, the truth is that Global Warming has been proven FALSE. We are actually cooler than what was previously stated on a yearly basis. Facts can be misconstrued, and a "lie told often enough becomes the truth." So why is it we are indoctrinating our kids on "Global Warming" and yet it's a falacy?

The fact is that none of the living, breathing scientists here really have anything to go on but theory based upon their "data." Our vision of the "evidence" is obscured by our current belief system. How can that be controlled so that you have an absolutely pure data interpretation? What I mean is, what scientist out there is absolutely unbiased in his opinion and proven to be so, so that when data is discovered, read, or translated, what comes out is pure and unfiltered through the mind of a sceptic or a supporter? I think that's an impossibility in and of itself.

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September 27th, 2013, 3:40 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
Here's a link to Dr. Ben Scripture and these podcasts speak directly to what some of you have stated is your interest. I have NOT listened to them, so I am not condoning them or offering an opinion, I'm just providing a link that you can choose to chase if you shoud desire.

http://www.scriptureoncreation.org/media.php?pageID=10

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September 27th, 2013, 3:43 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
WarEr4Christ wrote:
NJ,
I'd love to "research" the things I've found but haven't a clue where. On top of that most of the time I have heard about these stories, I'm not in a position to record where the info comes from. For example the story on the "worm" came from a recent scientific discovery, and I tried hard to search for it using Google and Bing, and nothing came up.

It's funny that Rao makes his point about the Creationist information as if somehow, because they are creationist they are automatically wrong. Dr. Benjamin Scripture, is a zoologist, biology, and one other area I forget the name of. But automatically, because he's in support of Creationism, he doesn't "count." Why? What makes his training and opinion any less than those who believe otherwise?

To Pablo's point: Facts do obscure the truth. Case in point, it's a documented fact that glaciers are melting, and temperatures are rising, and that Al Gore and his minions are using Global Warming as a control tactic and money grab. However, the truth is that Global Warming has been proven FALSE. We are actually cooler than what was previously stated on a yearly basis. Facts can be misconstrued, and a "lie told often enough becomes the truth." So why is it we are indoctrinating our kids on "Global Warming" and yet it's a falacy?

The fact is that none of the living, breathing scientists here really have anything to go on but theory based upon their "data." Our vision of the "evidence" is obscured by our current belief system. How can that be controlled so that you have an absolutely pure data interpretation? What I mean is, what scientist out there is absolutely unbiased in his opinion and proven to be so, so that when data is discovered, read, or translated, what comes out is pure and unfiltered through the mind of a sceptic or a supporter? I think that's an impossibility in and of itself.


I never said anyone was wrong because they are a Creationists. I did say that if your looking at the claims from a creationist source you should look for other sources that are not creationist that also acknowledge their claims. I only say that because it gives you a more accurate picture of what was found when you have other points of view.


September 27th, 2013, 4:43 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
My apologies, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth.

My perspective, developed from other conversations, and what little I have read has developed that perspective. I didn't mean to offend anyone.

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September 27th, 2013, 4:47 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
WarEr4Christ wrote:
My apologies, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth.

My perspective, developed from other conversations, and what little I have read has developed that perspective. I didn't mean to offend anyone.


It's not a problem I just wanted to clarify that I don't discount people just because they believe in something I don't.

You obviously don't have to answer this question, but do you have any friends or people you talk to often that aren't conservative and/or religious? I only ask because I've never real seen you post something that doesn't come from that far right side of things. You say a lot of your statements come from conversations you have and I was just wondering if you ever try to take yourself out of your normal element of conservatism.

I don't want to seem like I'm attacking you either, so be aware I do enjoy reading your posts even when they sometimes make me from my perspective on things go WTF!! I like reading people's takes on things from a different perspective than mine.


September 27th, 2013, 5:09 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
Rao - Theory means it's proven in science. It's not the same theory that we use. That's hypothesis in science. An idea that has can't/hasn't been tested. So when I said life is scientific theory, it means it can be tested/retested and yes we see it every day. Scientific theory is as close to fact as you're going to get in the science world. They don't use the word fact, because theories are subject to change as we've seen so many times in the past.

As for the stance on Creationism.. yes, because Creationism, which is really a small sect of the people that believe in a Creator... are spouting nonsense as fact, much like the footprint data, etc.. Science can easily debunk most of the individual claims. This is the problem with lumping everyone into one big group when there's many that don't believe in many of the stuff that is thrown around as bs facts. Creationism is almost another religion unto itself.

But when it comes to creation and God... science simply can't say anything beyond it doesn't know.


September 27th, 2013, 8:16 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
Rao,

You think reading some of the stuff I've typed makes you say WT heck, try believing it.... Now, that is not to say that I don't believe what I've read in the Bible, nor is it to say that I don't struggle with some of what I've read, but what I can say is that from what I have personally experienced that can not be physically proven, I have no doubt in what I believe. My problem is communicating that information without the benefit of physical data, and trying to get you and many others to take a chance on God.

Having said that, I actually have several friends who are not believers, and one in particular who is an "atheist." He's more like a brother to me, and we've shared thoughts and ideas back and forth. That mixed with the interaction with y'all is about the best I've got. But I'd like to expand upon that too! You see, going back to my personal experiences land locks me into my belief structure. So it's not that I'm afraid of different beliefs or information, but more along the lines of "I'm stubborn and unbending" because of what I know by personal experience.

Trust me, there are things like Peter walking on water, and Philip being instantly transported from the desert road to where he arrived that make me scratch my head and say what the heck, just like you. But that is where my faith comes in, and I just take it at face value, knowing I'll learn what I need to know at a later date. Thanks for your patience though!

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September 27th, 2013, 8:48 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
njroar wrote:
Rao - Theory means it's proven in science. It's not the same theory that we use. That's hypothesis in science. An idea that has can't/hasn't been tested. So when I said life is scientific theory, it means it can be tested/retested and yes we see it every day. Scientific theory is as close to fact as you're going to get in the science world. They don't use the word fact, because theories are subject to change as we've seen so many times in the past.

As for the stance on Creationism.. yes, because Creationism, which is really a small sect of the people that believe in a Creator... are spouting nonsense as fact, much like the footprint data, etc.. Science can easily debunk most of the individual claims. This is the problem with lumping everyone into one big group when there's many that don't believe in many of the stuff that is thrown around as bs facts. Creationism is almost another religion unto itself.

But when it comes to creation and God... science simply can't say anything beyond it doesn't know.


Honestly I think it's a shame that so many fanatics try to force creationism onto people or into schools because it totally undermines any chance of people taking anything from it's ideas. Like I mentioned before Intelligent Design which is connected with Creationism does have some legit scientific basis, but much of the supernatural parts of Creationism are forced on scientists that were interested in looking closer at it.

I wish religious zealots and science didn't conflict so much because sometimes having ideas that seem crazy are exactly what science needs to continue advancing.


September 27th, 2013, 9:32 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Rao,

You think reading some of the stuff I've typed makes you say WT heck, try believing it.... Now, that is not to say that I don't believe what I've read in the Bible, nor is it to say that I don't struggle with some of what I've read, but what I can say is that from what I have personally experienced that can not be physically proven, I have no doubt in what I believe. My problem is communicating that information without the benefit of physical data, and trying to get you and many others to take a chance on God.

Having said that, I actually have several friends who are not believers, and one in particular who is an "atheist." He's more like a brother to me, and we've shared thoughts and ideas back and forth. That mixed with the interaction with y'all is about the best I've got. But I'd like to expand upon that too! You see, going back to my personal experiences land locks me into my belief structure. So it's not that I'm afraid of different beliefs or information, but more along the lines of "I'm stubborn and unbending" because of what I know by personal experience.

Trust me, there are things like Peter walking on water, and Philip being instantly transported from the desert road to where he arrived that make me scratch my head and say what the heck, just like you. But that is where my faith comes in, and I just take it at face value, knowing I'll learn what I need to know at a later date. Thanks for your patience though!


I like to walk the line in-between. I grew up going to a Baptist Church and actually really enjoyed reading Biblical tales as a kid, but as I got older I found nothing other than trouble when organized religion was involved. I guess I would have to put myself in the Agnostic category because I don't believe man has the required knowledge or reason currently to actually prove or disprove God or any deities at all. Because of that I always surround myself with friends from every angle of lots of different subjects and I feel like I'm a lot more flexible in my beliefs. I respect your "stubbornness" because it shows a lot of conviction and I'm sometimes a little jealous of people that can believe in something so firmly.


September 27th, 2013, 9:46 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
I like to walk the line in-between. I grew up going to a Baptist Church and actually really enjoyed reading Biblical tales as a kid, but as I got older I found nothing other than trouble when organized religion was involved. I guess I would have to put myself in the Agnostic category because I don't believe man has the required knowledge or reason currently to actually prove or disprove God or any deities at all. Because of that I always surround myself with friends from every angle of lots of different subjects and I feel like I'm a lot more flexible in my beliefs. I respect your "stubbornness" because it shows a lot of conviction and I'm sometimes a little jealous of people that can believe in something so firmly.[/quote]

This completely describes my views. I do consider myself a Christian, but really, who knows? The reason I wont often express any beliefs is the I.E./E4 argument. I'm not saying hes a bad guy, but as usual it escalated and became the nasty subject that it usually becomes.

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September 28th, 2013, 1:31 am
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
Actually this is where I've tried to express the differences between "organized" or Traditional religion and relationship. The traditional or organized religion has rules and regulations that force people to adhere to a certain standard, but leaves very little room for "thinking." What I've tried to share, and maybe haven't done a very good job of it, is explain that God is relational.

This goes back to the initial story in Genesis where God forms man in His image. Adam and Eve walked and talked with God daily. RELATIONSHIP. The fact that satan/Lucifer attacked God by attacking those who bear the image of God, fractured the relationship. Since that time God has been in the process of redeeming the relationship, much like a husband trying to restore a relationship with a wayward wife. That's the story of Scripture. The New Testament brings in the story of Jesus and why He had to come the way He did, and what He wants with us.

The sad part is that mankind took "church" and made it a business. Those priests in authority took control of the Word, and removed it from the common man. Rules and regulations for behavior and worship were instilled and taught. Since that time church has stayed relatively the same, and people have become disenfranchised with it, and walked away. Many people in this country can speak the words, but don't have a clue about the relationship. Just this past weekend, I was speaking with an atheist friend of mine who made the comment that I am unlike any other Christian he has ever known, to which I replied, "that's because I'm learning to become more like Jesus." What did Jesus do? Did he attend the local church? Did he not immerse himself in the lives of the people around him, and meet their needs, love them, and help them? So why is this Jesus so terrible? Jesus argued with, judged, and exposed the current Theocratic rule. He stood against the "church" of his day, and exposed their fraud and lies. He loved the people around him, and called people to follow him, so what about that is so hard to follow?

CHURCHianity, would have you believe that you must do this, this and that, in order to be saved. I tell you Jesus is the way, and He paid a price so that we don't have to, the only thing we need to do is accept the offer. Consider it a "Do you love me Check YES [ ] or NO [ ]" letter from God. This is what I've tried to share, and probably not so successfully, and for that I apologize. It's all about the relationship! Not the rules, and not the regulations! IF it were about the rules then that means that we can earn our way into Heaven by doing x, y, and z. But we are not capable of earning our way, and that's why the offer is so important.

Thank you both for sharing your stories, and I appreciate your willingness to share your Baptist upbringing, but can you tell me from personal experience, are Baptists very legalistic? I've heard that they are, but I'm not wanting to pass judgment. Again, the relationship with God through Jesus is where you'll find the most rewarding experience, not the rules and regulations that tell you to maintain a certain standard in order to be saved. Thanks for letting me share my point of view and I hope this encourages you to give Jesus another look.

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September 28th, 2013, 4:37 pm
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Post Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Actually this is where I've tried to express the differences between "organized" or Traditional religion and relationship. The traditional or organized religion has rules and regulations that force people to adhere to a certain standard, but leaves very little room for "thinking." What I've tried to share, and maybe haven't done a very good job of it, is explain that God is relational.

This goes back to the initial story in Genesis where God forms man in His image. Adam and Eve walked and talked with God daily. RELATIONSHIP. The fact that satan/Lucifer attacked God by attacking those who bear the image of God, fractured the relationship. Since that time God has been in the process of redeeming the relationship, much like a husband trying to restore a relationship with a wayward wife. That's the story of Scripture. The New Testament brings in the story of Jesus and why He had to come the way He did, and what He wants with us.

The sad part is that mankind took "church" and made it a business. Those priests in authority took control of the Word, and removed it from the common man. Rules and regulations for behavior and worship were instilled and taught. Since that time church has stayed relatively the same, and people have become disenfranchised with it, and walked away. Many people in this country can speak the words, but don't have a clue about the relationship. Just this past weekend, I was speaking with an atheist friend of mine who made the comment that I am unlike any other Christian he has ever known, to which I replied, "that's because I'm learning to become more like Jesus." What did Jesus do? Did he attend the local church? Did he not immerse himself in the lives of the people around him, and meet their needs, love them, and help them? So why is this Jesus so terrible? Jesus argued with, judged, and exposed the current Theocratic rule. He stood against the "church" of his day, and exposed their fraud and lies. He loved the people around him, and called people to follow him, so what about that is so hard to follow?

CHURCHianity, would have you believe that you must do this, this and that, in order to be saved. I tell you Jesus is the way, and He paid a price so that we don't have to, the only thing we need to do is accept the offer. Consider it a "Do you love me Check YES [ ] or NO [ ]" letter from God. This is what I've tried to share, and probably not so successfully, and for that I apologize. It's all about the relationship! Not the rules, and not the regulations! IF it were about the rules then that means that we can earn our way into Heaven by doing x, y, and z. But we are not capable of earning our way, and that's why the offer is so important.

Thank you both for sharing your stories, and I appreciate your willingness to share your Baptist upbringing, but can you tell me from personal experience, are Baptists very legalistic? I've heard that they are, but I'm not wanting to pass judgment. Again, the relationship with God through Jesus is where you'll find the most rewarding experience, not the rules and regulations that tell you to maintain a certain standard in order to be saved. Thanks for letting me share my point of view and I hope this encourages you to give Jesus another look.


I wouldn't say my Church growing up was incredibly legalistic, there really isn't a strict Baptist set of rules and most Baptist Churches are all a little different.

I can't say I believe in a Christian god anymore, but I've never really let him go either. I just try to be what I feel is a good person and I'm sure a lot of my moral views do come from my childhood and learning about Jesus. I can't say I will ever give Jesus as you say another look, but I know I will always keep the morality that my interpretation of his teachings helped to build in me.


September 28th, 2013, 5:19 pm
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