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 Schwartz: Officials told him he couldn’t challenge play.... 
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Post Schwartz: Officials told him he couldn’t challenge play....
PFT wrote:
Jim Schwartz says officials told him he couldn’t challenge a reviewable play
Posted by Josh Alper on October 21, 2013, 11:27 AM EDT

Lions coach Jim Schwartz and the NFL’s replay system go together about as well as oil and water.

Last Thanksgiving, Schwartz threw a challenge flag when he shouldn’t have and wound up getting a penalty while wiping out the possibility of a challenge due to a rule that has since been changed. In Sunday’s loss to the Bengals, Schwartz says he was told by officials he couldn’t challenge a play that he was actually allowed to challenge.

It came in the second quarter when Bengals defensive end Carlos Dunlap blocked a David Akers field goal and Bengals safety Reggie Nelson recovered. Nelson returned the ball 16 yards and then appeared to lateral it forward to Dunlap, who then appeared to bat it in the direction of cornerback Dre Kirkpatrick. Kirkpatrick returned the ball nine more yards to the Lions’ 40-yard line before being tackled. Schwartz wanted to challenge, but said after the game that the officials told him there was nothing to challenge.

“They had forwarded the ball,” Schwartz said, via Dave Birkett of the Detroit Free Press. “I thought it was a forward lateral, but the officials told me that didn’t matter on a blocked kick so decided not to challenge it. They said that there’s no such thing as a forward fumble on a blocked kick. That’s what I was told.”

Former NFL vice president of officiating Mike Pereira, who now works for FOX Sports, said on Twitter during the game that the play was reviewable and that it looked like an illegal forward pass to him. The NFL made no judgment on the lateral, but said in a statement that the play was reviewable under Rule 15, Section 9, Article 4(d) which applies to any player not down by contact regardless of whether or not there was a blocked kick during the play.

There’s not much Schwartz can do at this point beyond complain to the league office and silently pine for a day when everyone involved in the game actually knows the rules about the review process.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... able-play/

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October 21st, 2013, 11:39 am
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Post Re: Schwartz: Officials told him he couldn’t challenge play.
sigh...I wonder if he realizes that this isnt something that makes him look good at all. As a coach he should understand the rules....even the convoluted ones. If this was a first time incident I might sympathise with him, but after his "learn the F'n Rules" comment 2 years ago, and last years Turkey Day travesty (that costed us the game) I have no sympathy or remorse, and if anything, it makes me want him gone as our coach.


Swartz still hasn't learned when to keep his mouth shut (or the rulebook apearantly)


October 21st, 2013, 11:57 am
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Post Re: Schwartz: Officials told him he couldn’t challenge play.
He asked. They said there was nothing to challenge. If you challenge an un-challengeable play, its a Penalty based on what happened last year. Unless that was the rule that got changed. So After asking the refs, and they said it was un-challengable. Are you saying he should have invited a penalty by throwing his flag anyways and argued that he knew thew rules better? Its a rock and a hard place.


October 21st, 2013, 12:07 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz: Officials told him he couldn’t challenge play.
Yeah, I don't blame Schwartz for this one at all. As DJ-B said, if anything this was a reaction to last year's debacle (better to be safe than sorry).

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October 21st, 2013, 12:49 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz: Officials told him he couldn’t challenge play.
Even if he had thrown the challenge flag, what good would it have done? The very same officials telling him it wasn't reviewable would be the ones who would have to do the review, and they would have simply repeated that it's not challengeable and play would have moved on. Schwartz did the right thing here.

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October 21st, 2013, 12:57 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz: Officials told him he couldn’t challenge play.
I gotta agree. Schwartz did the right thing by not forcing the issue. The refs already showed they didn't know the rules when he asked. There is no reason to risk them making things worse by giving Schwartz a penalty or letting him throw the flag and the team would lose the challenge plus a timeout since they saw nothing wrong with the play.


October 21st, 2013, 1:37 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz: Officials told him he couldn’t challenge play.
DJ-B wrote:
He asked. They said there was nothing to challenge. If you challenge an un-challengeable play, its a Penalty based on what happened last year. Unless that was the rule that got changed. So After asking the refs, and they said it was un-challengable. Are you saying he should have invited a penalty by throwing his flag anyways and argued that he knew thew rules better? Its a rock and a hard place.


YES! Thats what good coaches do. from time to time Officials get it wrong, they are human. As a coach it is just as much your job as theirs to know the rules! I have seen coaches correct Officials before and help them get it right. This is the 2nd time in 2 years that Swartz has made it clear he doesnt really know the rules...he just gets the gist of em.


October 21st, 2013, 1:49 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz: Officials told him he couldn’t challenge play.
Coaches have argued for calls and gotten them. Ive never seen a coach talk to a ref, then get the ref to change his interpretation of the rules on the field. Throwing the flag would at best have made no difference, or at worst cost us a challenge, timeout and potentially even a penalty.


October 21st, 2013, 2:08 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz: Officials told him he couldn’t challenge play.
DJ-B wrote:
Coaches have argued for calls and gotten them. Ive never seen a coach talk to a ref, then get the ref to change his interpretation of the rules on the field. Throwing the flag would at best have made no difference, or at worst cost us a challenge, timeout and potentially even a penalty.


and that changes the fact that Swartz didn't know the rules how? How many excuses do you want to give the guy before you see, there is a BIG PART of his job he simply doesnt know?

Like i said originally, if this was a one time deal, no biggie, or if this was an issue where he knew better but the refs wouldnt allow him to throw the flag, once again no biggie. But the fact that he had to ask if he could first, shows (once again) he doesn't understand the rules and it's a reoccuring problem now.

to Quote the hypocrite himself "LEARN THE F'N RULES"


October 21st, 2013, 2:12 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz: Officials told him he couldn’t challenge play.
regularjoe12 wrote:
DJ-B wrote:
Coaches have argued for calls and gotten them. Ive never seen a coach talk to a ref, then get the ref to change his interpretation of the rules on the field. Throwing the flag would at best have made no difference, or at worst cost us a challenge, timeout and potentially even a penalty.


and that changes the fact that Swartz didn't know the rules how? How many excuses do you want to give the guy before you see, there is a BIG PART of his job he simply doesnt know?

Like i said originally, if this was a one time deal, no biggie...but it a reoccuring problem now.
Maybe I'm missing something, but how exactly is/was Schwartz supposed to tell the Ref that the play was in fact reviewable, then let him review it when the Ref himself said that Schwartz cannot review it? Granted the Ref was incorrect, but how does a coach change that during the course of a game? Is there some sort of 'NFL Office' hotline coaches have during games for situations such as this?

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October 21st, 2013, 2:16 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz: Officials told him he couldn’t challenge play.
Schwartz has proven multiple times that he has rules issues, but this is not one of those times IMO.

From my POV, Schwartz understanding of the rule led him to call the ref over and say "Im thinking to challenge the forward movement of the ball" and the ref said, you cant challenge that. Sounds like Schwartz knew the rule and the ref didnt, and there was nowhere forward to go with it at that point.

I was much more concerned with running out the clock before halftime.


October 21st, 2013, 2:52 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz: Officials told him he couldn’t challenge play.
TheRealWags wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
DJ-B wrote:
Coaches have argued for calls and gotten them. Ive never seen a coach talk to a ref, then get the ref to change his interpretation of the rules on the field. Throwing the flag would at best have made no difference, or at worst cost us a challenge, timeout and potentially even a penalty.


and that changes the fact that Swartz didn't know the rules how? How many excuses do you want to give the guy before you see, there is a BIG PART of his job he simply doesnt know?

Like i said originally, if this was a one time deal, no biggie...but it a reoccuring problem now.
Maybe I'm missing something, but how exactly is/was Schwartz supposed to tell the Ref that the play was in fact reviewable, then let him review it when the Ref himself said that Schwartz cannot review it? Granted the Ref was incorrect, but how does a coach change that during the course of a game? Is there some sort of 'NFL Office' hotline coaches have during games for situations such as this?



Good coaches like Bilechek dont ask if it's OK....they TELL the refs what the rules are...and I have seen before a coach correct the refs. The refs have to huddle up and discuss with each other if the coach is correct, but they do what they think is correct. Even if they DON'T listen, Swartz then hasd the moral highground to file a greivance with the league and get refs (who also obviously dont know the rules) potentially fired, or at the very least educated.

Asking permission left him with no options...looking stoopid is all he gets got from it.

Let me put it like this. If you own a buisness and arn't sure if a practice is illegal, do you think the offials who caught you doing something wrong care who told you you could or couldn't do what you did reguardless of who you asked? no, you're fined/ arested with the "ignorance of the law is no excuse" if you are in the wrong. The same standards should be held to Swartz.

Im not implying the refs didnt screw Swartz when he asked....the problem is he HAD TO ASK! If it isnt a head coaches job to know the rules for the team...whos is it?


October 21st, 2013, 3:00 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz: Officials told him he couldn’t challenge play.
regularjoe12 wrote:
Good coaches like Bilechek dont ask if it's OK....they TELL the refs what the rules are...and I have seen before a coach correct the refs. The refs have to huddle up and discuss with each other if the coach is correct, but they do what they think is correct.
Care to dig up said proof? I honestly don't remember a case where a head coach TOLD a referee what the rule was or wasn't.

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October 21st, 2013, 4:37 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz: Officials told him he couldn’t challenge play.
regularjoe12 wrote:
TheRealWags wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
DJ-B wrote:
Coaches have argued for calls and gotten them. Ive never seen a coach talk to a ref, then get the ref to change his interpretation of the rules on the field. Throwing the flag would at best have made no difference, or at worst cost us a challenge, timeout and potentially even a penalty.


and that changes the fact that Swartz didn't know the rules how? How many excuses do you want to give the guy before you see, there is a BIG PART of his job he simply doesnt know?

Like i said originally, if this was a one time deal, no biggie...but it a reoccuring problem now.
Maybe I'm missing something, but how exactly is/was Schwartz supposed to tell the Ref that the play was in fact reviewable, then let him review it when the Ref himself said that Schwartz cannot review it? Granted the Ref was incorrect, but how does a coach change that during the course of a game? Is there some sort of 'NFL Office' hotline coaches have during games for situations such as this?



Good coaches like Bilechek dont ask if it's OK....they TELL the refs what the rules are...and I have seen before a coach correct the refs. The refs have to huddle up and discuss with each other if the coach is correct, but they do what they think is correct. Even if they DON'T listen, Swartz then hasd the moral highground to file a greivance with the league and get refs (who also obviously dont know the rules) potentially fired, or at the very least educated.

Asking permission left him with no options...looking stoopid is all he gets got from it.

Let me put it like this. If you own a buisness and arn't sure if a practice is illegal, do you think the offials who caught you doing something wrong care who told you you could or couldn't do what you did reguardless of who you asked? no, you're fined/ arested with the "ignorance of the law is no excuse" if you are in the wrong. The same standards should be held to Swartz.

Im not implying the refs didnt screw Swartz when he asked....the problem is he HAD TO ASK! If it isnt a head coaches job to know the rules for the team...whos is it?


You are off your rocker on this one joe. Schwartz had the flag in hand, and was ready to toss the flag and was told he could not or should not. EVERY coach has discussed things like this with referees in the past and have been told at one time or another that a play was or wasn't reviewable and have chosen NOT to throw the flag based on the officials input. Coaches DO NOT TELL GAME OFFICIALS WHAT THE RULES ARE! That is a preposterous statement.

I watched that portion of the game and saw the discussion. Schwartz asked the referee TWICE, 'it's not reviewable that he forwarded the ball?' I read his lips. And the referees were dead wrong. That officiating crew, or at least the head referee, should be heavily fined for their mistake. It allowed Cincinnati to advance that ball about 30 yards beyond where they should have ended up getting it.

If Schwartz had thrown the flag anyways, the on field official would have flagged him for either Unsportsmanlike Conduct or Delay of Game. He would NOT have asked the review booth for their input, as the review official has no say so on that matter. And had Schwartz defied what the official told him and had thrown the challenge flag, then got penalized for it, you'd be bashing him continuously over that.

Schwartz made some mistakes in the game, that's for sure. Once again, with time on the clock and timeouts available to him at the end of the first half, he doesn't take any shots downfield. He has multiple receivers that are 6'5" or taller, but chooses not to take a shot or two. Big mistake. That said, complaining about him not throwing the challenge flag there makes you look like you are complaining just to complain. Find another issue to complain about, because you are dead wrong on this one.,

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October 21st, 2013, 5:23 pm
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Post Re: Schwartz: Officials told him he couldn’t challenge play.
As far as "good coaches" like Belichick go I believe even he didn't know all the rules this past weekend when he had his players push another player towards the line during a FG attempt. Not knowing this rule cost the Patriots the game as the Jets had another try at the game winning FG.


October 22nd, 2013, 4:18 am
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