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 Same Old Lions? 
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Post Re: Same Old Lions?
I.E. wrote:
DJ-B wrote:
I.E. wrote:

IMO, the Lions should expect nothing short of a superbowl showing out of Schwartz, with the top draft picks he's been handed on a silver platter. People shouldn't be arguing whether the Lions have better players - they SHOULD have better players by LEAGUE DESIGN. IMO Schwartz should have been fired after a 4-win season last year. Has any coach ever had the talent that he's had and done less? I don't think so. I really believe as long as he is wearing the headset, the Lions will never be what they could be... and what the league actively tries to enable them to be.


WHile I agree with what you are saying in essence, in the era of the out of control 1st round rookie payscale the league system actually made it worse for the top few teams in the draft, especially if it was year after year in the top 5 ( a la detroit) in that having a few overpaid superstars and a bunch of turds on the rest of your roster is harder to win with when you need 22 starters than having a mostly balanced payscale on your roster with maybe 1-2 higher paid players. Not to say Schwartz doesnt need to be replaced because I think they should have made the move last season like you said, I just think saying the league is designed to balance the playing field with the draft is a misnomer in the past decade.


That is a valid point. Getting the top picks isn't a slam-dunk for success ... and actually, I guess the rules didnt' intend for the same teams to be getting the picks year after year and getting into that position. I'm trying to think of another perennially struggling team that got into the position of a few enormous contracts and then a bunch of journeymen who couldn't play. I can't really think of one off the top of my head - but I'm sure there are one or two.

I think the Lions issue was there was a perfect storm of those kinds of big-dollar draft picks, and a GM that screwed things up & didn't peddle picks around to balance the team better.


The Rams also went through the same problem as the Lions and are still terrible. I think the Browns is the other team that dealt with having 3 top 3 picks on their roster at the same time during the insane rookie pay levels and once again terrible. The rookie pay scale wasn't always a problem and really only got bad in the late 90s early 2000s. The Lions are probably the best example of a team working through the pay scale since they actually hit on their draft picks while the other 2 had huge misses. It may have even been a bigger boon to have missed like the Rams because they could shed the contracts where as the Lions players have been good enough to force them to work around the contracts which I think is even harder.


September 27th, 2013, 12:39 pm
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Post Re: Same Old Lions?
rao wrote:
The Rams also went through the same problem as the Lions and are still terrible. I think the Browns is the other team that dealt with having 3 top 3 picks on their roster at the same time during the insane rookie pay levels and once again terrible. The rookie pay scale wasn't always a problem and really only got bad in the late 90s early 2000s. The Lions are probably the best example of a team working through the pay scale since they actually hit on their draft picks while the other 2 had huge misses. It may have even been a bigger boon to have missed like the Rams because they could shed the contracts where as the Lions players have been good enough to force them to work around the contracts which I think is even harder.


The high pick, high pay days hurt more than a few teams. While some of those perennial bottom dweller teams were able to recover (like New Orleans), it really hurt expansion teams that were saddled with those picks as well.

I firmly believe that's why teams like New England would trade down, and trade down, and trade down. It allowed them to distribute the money for their payroll more wisely. Instead of paying out huge chunks to unproven rookies, they would use that money to pay proven veterans, then develop the young picks they made while not paying them elite money. The way the rookie pool was set up, teams were allowed to pay based on how high, and what number of picks they made. New England would kick the can down the road by trading away current picks for future ones. They made their share of poor picks, but didn't get saddled with mind numbing levels of dead cap money if those players didn't work out.

The biggest reason the Lions continue to struggle is that first off their current coach doesn't have 'it'. While early on I believed Schwartz could take them to the promised land, I have since allowed myself to discover he is not that man. I don't think he has the locker room. I don't think all the players respect him, and I don't think they believe in Gunner or Linehan and their systems either.

The other thing that is killing the Lions is the fact that they ARE missing on high picks. Titus Young and Mikael LeShoure were second round picks. We moved up to get LeShoure. Best was a first round pick. We moved up to get him. If you take a look at our drafts in the past few years, there's quite a few players we simply 'missed' on that hurt this team in the long run. 2010 draft - Best and Spievey. 2011 - Titus Young and Mikael LeShoure. We got one successful pick, Nick Fairley, from that draft. LeShoure is still on the squad, but as a 2nd round RB you'd expect him to start. 2012 - Ronnell Lewis and now Chris Greenwood-gone. 4th and 5th round picks should, in reality, make the team and start to contribute more than those two ever did. Our 2012 draft netted one starter this season, Riley Reiff. Broyles will now become a starter by default. Our first draft was our best, getting us three four starters, that have been starters since day one. 2010 brought us Suh, Willie Young and Jason Fox, with the latter two assuming starting roles just this year. 2011 was a clusterf**k for a draft, trading up to get LeShoure (which I admit I supported at the time, my bad). And from 2012, already I see two more of our picks likely to fall off the roster next year. I truly don't think Jonte Green will stick next season. He really should have been released this year, but stuck because Greenwood was worse. Also, I don't know if Tahir Whitehead will stay on the team if the Lions pick or sign some decent linebackers. I think Travis Lewis stays because he knows multiple positions.

I won't pretend to know what the league average is for having players stay on your roster, but the Lions have retained 15 out of 29 picks from 2009 through 2012 drafts (not going to count our most recent draft). And from 2010 to 2012, we've gotten five starters, all our first round picks (Suh, Fairley and Reiff), Willie Young and Jason Fox.

I don't know, maybe it's just me. But that just doesn't look like a good job of drafting, particularly in the second and third rounds.

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September 27th, 2013, 2:31 pm
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Post Re: Same Old Lions?
Interesting story on topic: http://deadspin.com/study-nfl-teams-hav ... 1378701238

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September 27th, 2013, 2:39 pm
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Post Re: Same Old Lions?
m2karateman wrote:
rao wrote:
The Rams also went through the same problem as the Lions and are still terrible. I think the Browns is the other team that dealt with having 3 top 3 picks on their roster at the same time during the insane rookie pay levels and once again terrible. The rookie pay scale wasn't always a problem and really only got bad in the late 90s early 2000s. The Lions are probably the best example of a team working through the pay scale since they actually hit on their draft picks while the other 2 had huge misses. It may have even been a bigger boon to have missed like the Rams because they could shed the contracts where as the Lions players have been good enough to force them to work around the contracts which I think is even harder.


The high pick, high pay days hurt more than a few teams. While some of those perennial bottom dweller teams were able to recover (like New Orleans), it really hurt expansion teams that were saddled with those picks as well.

I firmly believe that's why teams like New England would trade down, and trade down, and trade down. It allowed them to distribute the money for their payroll more wisely. Instead of paying out huge chunks to unproven rookies, they would use that money to pay proven veterans, then develop the young picks they made while not paying them elite money. The way the rookie pool was set up, teams were allowed to pay based on how high, and what number of picks they made. New England would kick the can down the road by trading away current picks for future ones. They made their share of poor picks, but didn't get saddled with mind numbing levels of dead cap money if those players didn't work out.

The biggest reason the Lions continue to struggle is that first off their current coach doesn't have 'it'. While early on I believed Schwartz could take them to the promised land, I have since allowed myself to discover he is not that man. I don't think he has the locker room. I don't think all the players respect him, and I don't think they believe in Gunner or Linehan and their systems either.

The other thing that is killing the Lions is the fact that they ARE missing on high picks. Titus Young and Mikael LeShoure were second round picks. We moved up to get LeShoure. Best was a first round pick. We moved up to get him. If you take a look at our drafts in the past few years, there's quite a few players we simply 'missed' on that hurt this team in the long run. 2010 draft - Best and Spievey. 2011 - Titus Young and Mikael LeShoure. We got one successful pick, Nick Fairley, from that draft. LeShoure is still on the squad, but as a 2nd round RB you'd expect him to start. 2012 - Ronnell Lewis and now Chris Greenwood-gone. 4th and 5th round picks should, in reality, make the team and start to contribute more than those two ever did. Our 2012 draft netted one starter this season, Riley Reiff. Broyles will now become a starter by default. Our first draft was our best, getting us three four starters, that have been starters since day one. 2010 brought us Suh, Willie Young and Jason Fox, with the latter two assuming starting roles just this year. 2011 was a clusterf**k for a draft, trading up to get LeShoure (which I admit I supported at the time, my bad). And from 2012, already I see two more of our picks likely to fall off the roster next year. I truly don't think Jonte Green will stick next season. He really should have been released this year, but stuck because Greenwood was worse. Also, I don't know if Tahir Whitehead will stay on the team if the Lions pick or sign some decent linebackers. I think Travis Lewis stays because he knows multiple positions.

I won't pretend to know what the league average is for having players stay on your roster, but the Lions have retained 15 out of 29 picks from 2009 through 2012 drafts (not going to count our most recent draft). And from 2010 to 2012, we've gotten five starters, all our first round picks (Suh, Fairley and Reiff), Willie Young and Jason Fox.

I don't know, maybe it's just me. But that just doesn't look like a good job of drafting, particularly in the second and third rounds.


I totally agree with everything you posted. The old system was incredibly bad. The Rams, Browns and Lions were just the teams that got the worst of it because they drafted top 3 or 4 three times with a 4 year period forcing them to have to pay 3 huge rookie deals at the same time. That's not even including the fact that they still had a mid level 1st rounder to pay also on the year they didn't end up in the top 3 or 4.


September 27th, 2013, 2:57 pm
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Post Re: Same Old Lions?
Hey Tony Douchebag err I mean Dungy, You can stick it again. These are clearly NOT the SOL.


September 29th, 2013, 10:28 pm
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Post Re: Same Old Lions?
BillySims wrote:
Hey Tony Douchebag err I mean Dungy, You can stick it again. These are clearly NOT the SOL.


Ditto again.


November 10th, 2013, 5:41 pm
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Post Re: Same Old Lions?
Well looks like Tony "Douchebag" knows a little something about what he's talking about.


November 24th, 2013, 5:24 pm
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Post Re: Same Old Lions?
rao wrote:
Well looks like Tony "Douchebag" knows a little something about what he's talking about.


I wonder if he'd have any interest in returning to coaching.


November 24th, 2013, 7:08 pm
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