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 Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go 
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
regularjoe12 wrote:
HechePipe wrote:
regularjoe12 wrote:
I'm going to get hate for saying this but Lovie would be a nice upgrade. He can forge a great defense with mostly average talent, if we can retain Linnahan, or get an OC of equal talent and get a coach who can get our D to play better we would be a contender.

Couple things here...
First of all, Lovie didn't take "average talent" and turn them into a great defense. Lovie had great players and forged a great defense. Briggs, Urlacher, Tank Johnson, Tillman... The guy wasn't given scrubs to work with, he was given great defensive talent and the offense grossly underachieved. He's no Mike Babcock, just for the record.
What, exactly, is killing the Lions? I'll give you a hint: It rhymes with schmurnovers.
They have the best front 7 in football right now. The coaching staff has done a beautiful job with the development of the rookies on defense and I'm convinced that if you had just two CBs that can intercept passes, they would be head and shoulders above the majority of NFL teams. Right now, they are allowing less than 90 YPG to opponents rushing attacks. This defense is OVERachieving and is hardly the reason the Lions have lost these games. If anything, Linehan's offense that habitually gets off to sloth-like starts is what's killing the team. Methinks you have it backwards.
This defense is overachieving and I sincerely doubt that bringing in Lovie Smith is going to make it any better. The defense is doing their job. The offense is what's lacking. And I think we can agree that even components of the offense are overachieving. Who expected this offensive line to perform as well as they have? Nobody, that's who. I didn't, you didn't and I think even Linehan didn't know they'd be this good.
Who expected the RB core to perform this well? Bell, Riddick and Bush have done more than their share (Bush's fumbles aside).
Bringing in Lovie is a step backwards. There's a reason that Chicago couldn't wait to get rid of him.

First I would argue that we don't even have close to the best front 7 in the league. We don't even have the best front 4 and our line is significantly stronger than our LBers.

2nd Lovie had Urlacher and Tillman. That's it for great players. Briggs is overrated and has been exposed as such everytime urlacher was out. Tank was only " great" for a year and a half. After his injury he was mediocre at best.

And finally a team defense that has allowed 20 points or more in all but 2 of its games is NOT overachieving. It's on the wrong side of average. They have played decently, only allowing 30+ points twice, but still far from overachieving.

As you pointed out turnovers are a big part of our losses...where has the defense contribution been over the past 4-5 weeks?
And didn't you find it hard to type " they couldn't wait to get rid of" a tenyered coach? He was there for like 12 years!

There are a few players in this league that would disagree with the notion that they're not the best front 7, namely Sitton, who called them scumbags prior to the game on Thursday.
As far as overachieving, did you think Ansah would be this good? Did you think that Levy would lead the league in INTs? Did you think the development of Taylor would go as well as it has so far? Glover Quin? Mathis? I'd say they exceeded expectations, hence overachieved.
Again, I vehemently disagree that Lovie was given only 2 good players. I think most others would too.
Over the past 4-5 weeks, the defense has slumped in the TO margin. But of course, having a slump in turnover ratio means you need a new head coach.
If all that you've said is true about Lovie, why is he currently unemployed? Because, you know, coaches who are given only 2 good players and forge a great defense aren't sought after or anything...


November 30th, 2013, 3:02 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
HechePipe wrote:
I think the same thing can be said for EVERY team that earns a wildcard spot. Hey, injuries kill a lot of teams. That's not an "if," that's a fact of professional football. What if Cutler didn't get injured in the playoffs? What if Tom Brady didn't tear his ACL that year? What if Roethlisberger didn't get hurt that year? What if Adrian Peterson didn't wreck his knee? Better yet, what if Calvin wasn't hurt during the first matchup? Could've been the first win in GB in a long time. That's why the games are played on the field and not on paper. And so on and so on...


No, it's not true of every team that wins their division or gets into the playoffs as a wildcard. Green Bay was decimated by injuries when they last won the Super Bowl. They had something like 17 players on IR, with at least half of them starters. They overcame those injuries. Good teams overcome those injuries. When Brady went down, the Patriots still made the playoffs, didn't they? That is what good teams do. It's about the Lions being the best team in the division, then in the conference, then in the entire NFL. I want them to win against their opponents because they are the better team, not because they have the least amount of injuries.


HechePipe wrote:
Hey, believe what you want, but injuries happen. If Stafford goes down tomorrow, I think Hill can carry the Lions better than Flynn carried the Pack. Should've gotten a better #2 if you're a GB fan. I don't even think the absence of Rodgers was their biggest difficulty. The biggest difficulty for the Pack for years has been their offensive line. I guess if their line was better, maybe this discussion would sound different. That defense is atrocious too. Flynn didn't allow the Lions to score 40 points. Did he?


The Packers have had a suspect offensive line for a few years. In that same time, they have DOMINATED the NFC North, have they not? But during that time, the QB has been Rodgers. So stating that Rodgers being out wasn't their biggest issue makes you sound like a complete fool who is making a feeble attempt to support his position. Sad, really. And you forget that Green Bay has also lost a few of their top receivers, were missing their starting offensive tackles, as well as a few other players on both sides of the ball. It wasn't just Rodgers, but it was mostly his absence that made the Packers struggle. But deep down, I think you know that.

The Lions were able to score 40 points because the Green Bay defense wasn't able to get off the field. Give me an offense that can't move the ball and puts the defense on the field constantly and I'd expect the opposition to score a boatload of points as well.

HechePipe wrote:
Sure and I think Schwartz has made some bad calls. I'm not even in his camp, but who is the guy that can get them to the pinnacle? If you're calling for his head, surely you have the solution available, right? If you know he's gotta go, then you must have some sort of idea about who can do a better job. I mean, if not, then how do you know he's doing so terribly? His record isn't reflecting a terrible fire-worthy head coaching performance, given what he's inherited. Has there been a coach available that could undoubtedly have done a better job than Schwartz has? If not, then you're just changing coaches simply for the sake of changing coaches, which is what the Lions have done for the last 50 years and I'd like you to take a look at where it has gotten them.


There are several qualified coaches available that have taken their previous teams to the Super Bowl. This team has been underperforming EVERY year under Schwartz. That includes the year they finished 10-6. Remember, they started that season 5-0. That five win start was the only time I feel the team was really playing to their potential, and playing well. Since that time, they have a collective record of 16-23. Is that a coach YOU feel is destined to take them to the Promised Land? Is that a coach you feel strongly is causing the team to meet its potential? Because if you are satisfied with that type of performance, then you celebrate mediocrity. Other coaches have been fired for FAR better records over a three year period. FAR BETTER coaches. And you know what? ENOUGH with the bullshit about the team he inherited. That team no longer exists, and hasn't for quite some time. It's an excuse now, not a reason, for his team to not be as dominant a force as they should be.

HechePipe wrote:
Well, you're assuming that the Lions can't get another dominant DT or WR. Who's to say that any of these players are going to leave? I'm sure some of the talent will leave, but that's why you have a GM that can replace talent. Will we ever get another CJ? Probably not. Will we get another DT like Suh? Maybe, maybe not. But I see the Lions adding pro-bowlers every year. In a few years, will we be able to get another Warford or Ansah? Will we be able to get another Bush, etc?
You're making the assumption that the Lions are as good as they will ever be. And that doesn't have to be true. They may not have the best DT combo in the league, maybe by then it will be the 2nd best with the best DBs, or the best WR core that doesn't include Calvin... What you're essentially saying is that the Lions can not get any better than they are today and of course that's just not necessarily true. Given the picks we've made in this year's draft, the overall team seems like it can only get better.


YOU see Pro Bowlers being added every year. Really? How many Pro Bowlers did the Lions have on the team last season? The year before that? And before that? And how many Pro Bowlers do you project this team having this season? There is no doubt the Lions have talent on this team. More than enough talent to compete every year with the best in the conference. But there's a reason why they aren't. They aren't playing consistently good football. And that is all about the coaches. My statements about players leaving isn't an assumption, it is an eventuality. Good players want their efforts rewarded via championships. It is the single, best way for them to improve their own personal brand. They get more offers outside of football based on that, more so than even being a Pro Bowler on an under-achieving team. Other players have left this team despite being offered pretty good contracts. And to a man, every single one of them stated 'I wanted to play for a winner.' Even Barry got tired of the culture around here, which prompted his all too early retirement.

So you already know just how good the picks from this years draft are going to be? Well, I guess we should contact the people in Allen Park and tell them that we have someone to run their Draft War Rooms for them. It amazes me that after half a season you already know this years draft picks will all be future Pro Bowlers and impact makers. Sorry, but that's complete garbage. Everybody was sure Stafford was a wasted pick after his first two seasons. Everybody was sure Peyton Manning was useless during his first season. And after he left San Diego with his future in question due to his shoulder injury, everybody thought the Saints were idiots for signing Drew Brees to such a lucrative contract. You know nothing right now, which is the same as the rest of us. Three years, HechePipe. You wait three years before you get a pretty good idea of just how good a player will be for his career, rather than whether they are just a flash in the pan, or complete garbage.

What I've said is that the Lions are as good as they have ever been, right now. And that in the NFL you have to take advantage of that. Injuries have been minimal. Can we say that every year at this time? No. We lost one free agent that could have made a difference (Avril), but even his impact wouldn't have made a huge upgrade. The Lions had an impactful off-season of signings, and the picks have done OK thus far (Warford is the exception, he's been the best of all the picks BY FAR). You don't see that type of activity every year, especially here. That all adds up to having to win, and win NOW.

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November 30th, 2013, 4:23 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
I'm willing to bet that prior to week 5, nobody thought the Lions would be at 7-5 right now outside of a few kool aid drinking slappys.
Nobody really thought they had the talent, but here they are at 7-5 with a soft remaining schedule. They've beaten the Bears twice and GB and MIN once each.
So my point is that even though they've exceeded your expectations by a good margin probably, it's still not good enough and somehow it's Schwartz's fault. All of a sudden, they're superbowl contenders and it's Schwartz's fault if they don't win it all?
If you didn't truly believe they'd be 7-5 at the start of the season, then they're overachieving. I didn't think so and I'm no Peter King, but I can recognize when a team is playing above their level. If a sub-par team is performing above their level, can't we give a little bit of credit to the coach? Of course not, it's not what Lions fans do. It's because the other teams suck, it's because of injuries, it's dumb luck, never because the coach had anything to do with it. Give credit everywhere except the coaching staff or the players.


November 30th, 2013, 4:31 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
m2karateman wrote:
HechePipe wrote:
I think the same thing can be said for EVERY team that earns a wildcard spot. Hey, injuries kill a lot of teams. That's not an "if," that's a fact of professional football. What if Cutler didn't get injured in the playoffs? What if Tom Brady didn't tear his ACL that year? What if Roethlisberger didn't get hurt that year? What if Adrian Peterson didn't wreck his knee? Better yet, what if Calvin wasn't hurt during the first matchup? Could've been the first win in GB in a long time. That's why the games are played on the field and not on paper. And so on and so on...


No, it's not true of every team that wins their division or gets into the playoffs as a wildcard. Green Bay was decimated by injuries when they last won the Super Bowl. They had something like 17 players on IR, with at least half of them starters. They overcame those injuries. Good teams overcome those injuries. When Brady went down, the Patriots still made the playoffs, didn't they? That is what good teams do. It's about the Lions being the best team in the division, then in the conference, then in the entire NFL. I want them to win against their opponents because they are the better team, not because they have the least amount of injuries.


HechePipe wrote:
Hey, believe what you want, but injuries happen. If Stafford goes down tomorrow, I think Hill can carry the Lions better than Flynn carried the Pack. Should've gotten a better #2 if you're a GB fan. I don't even think the absence of Rodgers was their biggest difficulty. The biggest difficulty for the Pack for years has been their offensive line. I guess if their line was better, maybe this discussion would sound different. That defense is atrocious too. Flynn didn't allow the Lions to score 40 points. Did he?


The Packers have had a suspect offensive line for a few years. In that same time, they have DOMINATED the NFC North, have they not? But during that time, the QB has been Rodgers. So stating that Rodgers being out wasn't their biggest issue makes you sound like a complete fool who is making a feeble attempt to support his position. Sad, really. And you forget that Green Bay has also lost a few of their top receivers, were missing their starting offensive tackles, as well as a few other players on both sides of the ball. It wasn't just Rodgers, but it was mostly his absence that made the Packers struggle. But deep down, I think you know that.

The Lions were able to score 40 points because the Green Bay defense wasn't able to get off the field. Give me an offense that can't move the ball and puts the defense on the field constantly and I'd expect the opposition to score a boatload of points as well.

HechePipe wrote:
Sure and I think Schwartz has made some bad calls. I'm not even in his camp, but who is the guy that can get them to the pinnacle? If you're calling for his head, surely you have the solution available, right? If you know he's gotta go, then you must have some sort of idea about who can do a better job. I mean, if not, then how do you know he's doing so terribly? His record isn't reflecting a terrible fire-worthy head coaching performance, given what he's inherited. Has there been a coach available that could undoubtedly have done a better job than Schwartz has? If not, then you're just changing coaches simply for the sake of changing coaches, which is what the Lions have done for the last 50 years and I'd like you to take a look at where it has gotten them.


There are several qualified coaches available that have taken their previous teams to the Super Bowl. This team has been underperforming EVERY year under Schwartz. That includes the year they finished 10-6. Remember, they started that season 5-0. That five win start was the only time I feel the team was really playing to their potential, and playing well. Since that time, they have a collective record of 16-23. Is that a coach YOU feel is destined to take them to the Promised Land? Is that a coach you feel strongly is causing the team to meet its potential? Because if you are satisfied with that type of performance, then you celebrate mediocrity. Other coaches have been fired for FAR better records over a three year period. FAR BETTER coaches. And you know what? ENOUGH with the bullshit about the team he inherited. That team no longer exists, and hasn't for quite some time. It's an excuse now, not a reason, for his team to not be as dominant a force as they should be.

HechePipe wrote:
Well, you're assuming that the Lions can't get another dominant DT or WR. Who's to say that any of these players are going to leave? I'm sure some of the talent will leave, but that's why you have a GM that can replace talent. Will we ever get another CJ? Probably not. Will we get another DT like Suh? Maybe, maybe not. But I see the Lions adding pro-bowlers every year. In a few years, will we be able to get another Warford or Ansah? Will we be able to get another Bush, etc?
You're making the assumption that the Lions are as good as they will ever be. And that doesn't have to be true. They may not have the best DT combo in the league, maybe by then it will be the 2nd best with the best DBs, or the best WR core that doesn't include Calvin... What you're essentially saying is that the Lions can not get any better than they are today and of course that's just not necessarily true. Given the picks we've made in this year's draft, the overall team seems like it can only get better.


YOU see Pro Bowlers being added every year. Really? How many Pro Bowlers did the Lions have on the team last season? The year before that? And before that? And how many Pro Bowlers do you project this team having this season? There is no doubt the Lions have talent on this team. More than enough talent to compete every year with the best in the conference. But there's a reason why they aren't. They aren't playing consistently good football. And that is all about the coaches. My statements about players leaving isn't an assumption, it is an eventuality. Good players want their efforts rewarded via championships. It is the single, best way for them to improve their own personal brand. They get more offers outside of football based on that, more so than even being a Pro Bowler on an under-achieving team. Other players have left this team despite being offered pretty good contracts. And to a man, every single one of them stated 'I wanted to play for a winner.' Even Barry got tired of the culture around here, which prompted his all too early retirement.

So you already know just how good the picks from this years draft are going to be? Well, I guess we should contact the people in Allen Park and tell them that we have someone to run their Draft War Rooms for them. It amazes me that after half a season you already know this years draft picks will all be future Pro Bowlers and impact makers. Sorry, but that's complete garbage. Everybody was sure Stafford was a wasted pick after his first two seasons. Everybody was sure Peyton Manning was useless during his first season. And after he left San Diego with his future in question due to his shoulder injury, everybody thought the Saints were idiots for signing Drew Brees to such a lucrative contract. You know nothing right now, which is the same as the rest of us. Three years, HechePipe. You wait three years before you get a pretty good idea of just how good a player will be for his career, rather than whether they are just a flash in the pan, or complete garbage.

What I've said is that the Lions are as good as they have ever been, right now. And that in the NFL you have to take advantage of that. Injuries have been minimal. Can we say that every year at this time? No. We lost one free agent that could have made a difference (Avril), but even his impact wouldn't have made a huge upgrade. The Lions had an impactful off-season of signings, and the picks have done OK thus far (Warford is the exception, he's been the best of all the picks BY FAR). You don't see that type of activity every year, especially here. That all adds up to having to win, and win NOW.

I love your sarcastic and combative tone. :) It makes you sound really smart.


November 30th, 2013, 4:34 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
HechePipe wrote:
I'm willing to bet that prior to week 5, nobody thought the Lions would be at 7-5 right now outside of a few kool aid drinking slappys.
Nobody really thought they had the talent, but here they are at 7-5 with a soft remaining schedule. They've beaten the Bears twice and GB and MIN once each.
So my point is that even though they've exceeded your expectations by a good margin probably, it's still not good enough and somehow it's Schwartz's fault. All of a sudden, they're superbowl contenders and it's Schwartz's fault if they don't win it all?
If you didn't truly believe they'd be 7-5 at the start of the season, then they're overachieving. I didn't think so and I'm no Peter King, but I can recognize when a team is playing above their level. If a sub-par team is performing above their level, can't we give a little bit of credit to the coach? Of course not, it's not what Lions fans do. It's because the other teams suck, it's because of injuries, it's dumb luck, never because the coach had anything to do with it. Give credit everywhere except the coaching staff or the players.


Well, I am no slappy. But, I figured they would be. Just look at my Lions predictions posts.


November 30th, 2013, 4:41 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
BillySims wrote:
HechePipe wrote:
I'm willing to bet that prior to week 5, nobody thought the Lions would be at 7-5 right now outside of a few kool aid drinking slappys.
Nobody really thought they had the talent, but here they are at 7-5 with a soft remaining schedule. They've beaten the Bears twice and GB and MIN once each.
So my point is that even though they've exceeded your expectations by a good margin probably, it's still not good enough and somehow it's Schwartz's fault. All of a sudden, they're superbowl contenders and it's Schwartz's fault if they don't win it all?
If you didn't truly believe they'd be 7-5 at the start of the season, then they're overachieving. I didn't think so and I'm no Peter King, but I can recognize when a team is playing above their level. If a sub-par team is performing above their level, can't we give a little bit of credit to the coach? Of course not, it's not what Lions fans do. It's because the other teams suck, it's because of injuries, it's dumb luck, never because the coach had anything to do with it. Give credit everywhere except the coaching staff or the players.


Well, I am no slappy. But, I figured they would be. Just look at my Lions predictions posts.

You also think that Schwartz shouldn't be immediately fired after this season. I figured they'd be at 8-8, which can still happen of course. What I'm seeing is progress. It might not be as fast as some people may like, but it is progress and it's more than most people expected.

I see Ansah as a pro-bowler. If he continues to do what he's doing now, he's in the conversation at least. Warford is a pro-bowler or at least in the conversation.
From last year, Reiff could also be in the conversation. Bentley is a good pick, though injured right now. Travis Lewis was a great 7th rounder. Yeah, the Lions missed on a few picks last year. It happens. But this team is getting better every year.


November 30th, 2013, 4:49 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
HechePipe wrote:
BillySims wrote:
HechePipe wrote:
I'm willing to bet that prior to week 5, nobody thought the Lions would be at 7-5 right now outside of a few kool aid drinking slappys.
Nobody really thought they had the talent, but here they are at 7-5 with a soft remaining schedule. They've beaten the Bears twice and GB and MIN once each.
So my point is that even though they've exceeded your expectations by a good margin probably, it's still not good enough and somehow it's Schwartz's fault. All of a sudden, they're superbowl contenders and it's Schwartz's fault if they don't win it all?
If you didn't truly believe they'd be 7-5 at the start of the season, then they're overachieving. I didn't think so and I'm no Peter King, but I can recognize when a team is playing above their level. If a sub-par team is performing above their level, can't we give a little bit of credit to the coach? Of course not, it's not what Lions fans do. It's because the other teams suck, it's because of injuries, it's dumb luck, never because the coach had anything to do with it. Give credit everywhere except the coaching staff or the players.


Well, I am no slappy. But, I figured they would be. Just look at my Lions predictions posts.

You also think that Schwartz shouldn't be immediately fired after this season. I figured they'd be at 8-8, which can still happen of course. What I'm seeing is progress. It might not be as fast as some people may like, but it is progress and it's more than most people expected.

I see Ansah as a pro-bowler. If he continues to do what he's doing now, he's in the conversation at least. Warford is a pro-bowler or at least in the conversation.
From last year, Reiff could also be in the conversation. Bentley is a good pick, though injured right now. Travis Lewis was a great 7th rounder. Yeah, the Lions missed on a few picks last year. It happens. But this team is getting better every year.

Every argument you're making to support the progress of the team pretty much shows that Mayhew has done a good job. Selecting the right guys with draft picks and getting key free agents is the job of the front office, not the coach. My issues are discipline & consistency. The team is not disciplined and does not play consistently. The biggest of those to me is discipline, because a disciplined team is typically consistent. It just drives me nuts to see the team committing tons of penalties and basically doing dumb things. You simply do not see successful teams do that, at least not regularly. In every year since Schwartz has been here, the team has been near the top of the league in penalties and dumb mistakes. I get that when he took over he needed to change the culture and make the team tougher, so that can lead to some additional penalties. But the need to establish the team toughness is long since over. Everyone knows the Lions are a tough team. Now they need to learn to be tough and smart. And that comes from the top. As I said before, I see Schwartz as being similar to a lot of other coaches who are very good position coaches or coordinators, but don't make the best head coaches. I'm thinking Norv Turner as an example. It has nothing to do with the talent level of the team or any of the other things you brought up. To me, it's simply discipline. Good teams don't allow dumb mistakes and discipline break downs to keep happening, and on Detroit it seems those things aren't punished. The head coach seems to be allowing it to continue and doesn't seem to be holding players accountable for those mistakes. That's why I think a change is needed.

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November 30th, 2013, 5:51 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
HechePipe wrote:
BillySims wrote:
HechePipe wrote:
I'm willing to bet that prior to week 5, nobody thought the Lions would be at 7-5 right now outside of a few kool aid drinking slappys.
Nobody really thought they had the talent, but here they are at 7-5 with a soft remaining schedule. They've beaten the Bears twice and GB and MIN once each.
So my point is that even though they've exceeded your expectations by a good margin probably, it's still not good enough and somehow it's Schwartz's fault. All of a sudden, they're superbowl contenders and it's Schwartz's fault if they don't win it all?
If you didn't truly believe they'd be 7-5 at the start of the season, then they're overachieving. I didn't think so and I'm no Peter King, but I can recognize when a team is playing above their level. If a sub-par team is performing above their level, can't we give a little bit of credit to the coach? Of course not, it's not what Lions fans do. It's because the other teams suck, it's because of injuries, it's dumb luck, never because the coach had anything to do with it. Give credit everywhere except the coaching staff or the players.


Well, I am no slappy. But, I figured they would be. Just look at my Lions predictions posts.

You also think that Schwartz shouldn't be immediately fired after this season. I figured they'd be at 8-8, which can still happen of course. What I'm seeing is progress. It might not be as fast as some people may like, but it is progress and it's more than most people expected.

I see Ansah as a pro-bowler. If he continues to do what he's doing now, he's in the conversation at least. Warford is a pro-bowler or at least in the conversation.
From last year, Reiff could also be in the conversation. Bentley is a good pick, though injured right now. Travis Lewis was a great 7th rounder. Yeah, the Lions missed on a few picks last year. It happens. But this team is getting better every year.

Every argument you're making to support the progress of the team pretty much shows that Mayhew has done a good job. Selecting the right guys with draft picks and getting key free agents is the job of the front office, not the coach. My issues are discipline & consistency. The team is not disciplined and does not play consistently. The biggest of those to me is discipline, because a disciplined team is typically consistent. It just drives me nuts to see the team committing tons of penalties and basically doing dumb things. You simply do not see successful teams do that, at least not regularly. In every year since Schwartz has been here, the team has been near the top of the league in penalties and dumb mistakes. I get that when he took over he needed to change the culture and make the team tougher, so that can lead to some additional penalties. But the need to establish the team toughness is long since over. Everyone knows the Lions are a tough team. Now they need to learn to be tough and smart. And that comes from the top. As I said before, I see Schwartz as being similar to a lot of other coaches who are very good position coaches or coordinators, but don't make the best head coaches. I'm thinking Norv Turner as an example. It has nothing to do with the talent level of the team or any of the other things you brought up. To me, it's simply discipline. Good teams don't allow dumb mistakes and discipline break downs to keep happening, and on Detroit it seems those things aren't punished. The head coach seems to be allowing it to continue and doesn't seem to be holding players accountable for those mistakes. That's why I think a change is needed.

It's also not as if a head coach only calls plays and disappears for the other 6 days of the week. Can it not be said that the head coach develops talent? If that's part of his job, he's doing pretty damned well at it. Mayhew isn't out there coaching players to be in the right position to make plays, that's Schwartz. Given the talent he's gotten, he's developed the players pretty well. So try not to assert that he just shows up on sunday and goes back to a batcave until it's time to put the headset on again.


November 30th, 2013, 6:00 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
HechePipe wrote:
I'm willing to bet that prior to week 5, nobody thought the Lions would be at 7-5 right now outside of a few kool aid drinking slappys.
Nobody really thought they had the talent, but here they are at 7-5 with a soft remaining schedule. They've beaten the Bears twice and GB and MIN once each.
So my point is that even though they've exceeded your expectations by a good margin probably, it's still not good enough and somehow it's Schwartz's fault. All of a sudden, they're superbowl contenders and it's Schwartz's fault if they don't win it all?
If you didn't truly believe they'd be 7-5 at the start of the season, then they're overachieving. I didn't think so and I'm no Peter King, but I can recognize when a team is playing above their level. If a sub-par team is performing above their level, can't we give a little bit of credit to the coach? Of course not, it's not what Lions fans do. It's because the other teams suck, it's because of injuries, it's dumb luck, never because the coach had anything to do with it. Give credit everywhere except the coaching staff or the players.


What people predicted for the team doesn't matter. If people predicted the team to go 0-16, and they won two games, does that mean we should all be doing handstands of happiness right now? Those of us who are critical of Schwartz and this team are talking about performance week to week, not the predicted outcome of the season well before it is played. Comparing the reality to the fantasy is a fools game. This is about the teams performances, and they have been inconsistent throughout the season. A large part of that inconsistency is drawn from the coaching staff not preparing the team as they should, and maintaining discipline amongst the players. If you can't accept that reality, then there's nothing more to discuss here. But I will tell you my prediction. My prediction is that as long as the Lions retain Schwartz as the head coach of this team, they will continue to struggle with fundamentals and won't be involved in a conference championship game under his regime. If I am wrong, I'll gladly admit it and eat my words.

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November 30th, 2013, 6:36 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
m2karateman wrote:
HechePipe wrote:
I'm willing to bet that prior to week 5, nobody thought the Lions would be at 7-5 right now outside of a few kool aid drinking slappys.
Nobody really thought they had the talent, but here they are at 7-5 with a soft remaining schedule. They've beaten the Bears twice and GB and MIN once each.
So my point is that even though they've exceeded your expectations by a good margin probably, it's still not good enough and somehow it's Schwartz's fault. All of a sudden, they're superbowl contenders and it's Schwartz's fault if they don't win it all?
If you didn't truly believe they'd be 7-5 at the start of the season, then they're overachieving. I didn't think so and I'm no Peter King, but I can recognize when a team is playing above their level. If a sub-par team is performing above their level, can't we give a little bit of credit to the coach? Of course not, it's not what Lions fans do. It's because the other teams suck, it's because of injuries, it's dumb luck, never because the coach had anything to do with it. Give credit everywhere except the coaching staff or the players.


What people predicted for the team doesn't matter. If people predicted the team to go 0-16, and they won two games, does that mean we should all be doing handstands of happiness right now? Those of us who are critical of Schwartz and this team are talking about performance week to week, not the predicted outcome of the season well before it is played. Comparing the reality to the fantasy is a fools game. This is about the teams performances, and they have been inconsistent throughout the season. A large part of that inconsistency is drawn from the coaching staff not preparing the team as they should, and maintaining discipline amongst the players. If you can't accept that reality, then there's nothing more to discuss here. But I will tell you my prediction. My prediction is that as long as the Lions retain Schwartz as the head coach of this team, they will continue to struggle with fundamentals and won't be involved in a conference championship game under his regime. If I am wrong, I'll gladly admit it and eat my words.

I think I'm at one playoff win. If the lions win one playoff game this year, I would think that Schwartz is off any proverbial hot seat. If he can pull off a playoff win with this secondary, that's a hell of a coaching job to me.
He's not the second coming of Lombardi, but the Lions can and have done worse.


November 30th, 2013, 6:39 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
HechePipe wrote:
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
Every argument you're making to support the progress of the team pretty much shows that Mayhew has done a good job. Selecting the right guys with draft picks and getting key free agents is the job of the front office, not the coach. My issues are discipline & consistency. The team is not disciplined and does not play consistently. The biggest of those to me is discipline, because a disciplined team is typically consistent. It just drives me nuts to see the team committing tons of penalties and basically doing dumb things. You simply do not see successful teams do that, at least not regularly. In every year since Schwartz has been here, the team has been near the top of the league in penalties and dumb mistakes. I get that when he took over he needed to change the culture and make the team tougher, so that can lead to some additional penalties. But the need to establish the team toughness is long since over. Everyone knows the Lions are a tough team. Now they need to learn to be tough and smart. And that comes from the top. As I said before, I see Schwartz as being similar to a lot of other coaches who are very good position coaches or coordinators, but don't make the best head coaches. I'm thinking Norv Turner as an example. It has nothing to do with the talent level of the team or any of the other things you brought up. To me, it's simply discipline. Good teams don't allow dumb mistakes and discipline break downs to keep happening, and on Detroit it seems those things aren't punished. The head coach seems to be allowing it to continue and doesn't seem to be holding players accountable for those mistakes. That's why I think a change is needed.

It's also not as if a head coach only calls plays and disappears for the other 6 days of the week. Can it not be said that the head coach develops talent? If that's part of his job, he's doing pretty damned well at it. Mayhew isn't out there coaching players to be in the right position to make plays, that's Schwartz. Given the talent he's gotten, he's developed the players pretty well. So try not to assert that he just shows up on sunday and goes back to a batcave until it's time to put the headset on again.

Wow. Nowhere did I assert anything of the sort. You should really try brushing up on reading comprehension and understanding that some words modify sentences to slightly change their meaning. Above, I said that the arguments you made "pretty much" showed that Mayhew is doing a good job. I didn't say it was entirely him. And I never said anything about Schwartz only showing up on game day. Man you really are putting words in my mouth.

All that said, I agree that in the past year or two the talent does seem to be improving, and the coach deserves some credit for that. But that's not the issue. The issue (as I said) is discipline. The difference between teams that win consistently and those that don't isn't talent. For the most part, the talent level across the NFL is not widely different. Sure, there are a few notable exceptions, but in general, the taken level of the top 10 or so teams are mostly similar. The difference is the top teams don't do stupid things, and tend to play disciplined football. They don't get personal foul penalties over and over, they don't overachieve one week, then lose to a team they should easily beat the following week. The top teams typically are near the bottom of the league in penalties against, they tend to beat the teams they should beat almost every time, and they occasionally win the games they shouldn't win. The Lions are pretty much the opposite of all those things. They will sometimes beat the teams they should, but other times they completely crap the bed. It seems to me that it's typically about 50/50.

In the end, the most important issue for me is discipline and playing smart football. If you have the talent, and you play smart football, you'll win most of your games. And from where I sit, this team will not achieve long term success until they start playing smarter, and I don't see it happening under Schwartz. That's why I think he needs to go. Not development of draft picks or anything else. Without discipline and consistency, they won't win.

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November 30th, 2013, 6:46 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
HechePipe wrote:
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
Every argument you're making to support the progress of the team pretty much shows that Mayhew has done a good job. Selecting the right guys with draft picks and getting key free agents is the job of the front office, not the coach. My issues are discipline & consistency. The team is not disciplined and does not play consistently. The biggest of those to me is discipline, because a disciplined team is typically consistent. It just drives me nuts to see the team committing tons of penalties and basically doing dumb things. You simply do not see successful teams do that, at least not regularly. In every year since Schwartz has been here, the team has been near the top of the league in penalties and dumb mistakes. I get that when he took over he needed to change the culture and make the team tougher, so that can lead to some additional penalties. But the need to establish the team toughness is long since over. Everyone knows the Lions are a tough team. Now they need to learn to be tough and smart. And that comes from the top. As I said before, I see Schwartz as being similar to a lot of other coaches who are very good position coaches or coordinators, but don't make the best head coaches. I'm thinking Norv Turner as an example. It has nothing to do with the talent level of the team or any of the other things you brought up. To me, it's simply discipline. Good teams don't allow dumb mistakes and discipline break downs to keep happening, and on Detroit it seems those things aren't punished. The head coach seems to be allowing it to continue and doesn't seem to be holding players accountable for those mistakes. That's why I think a change is needed.

It's also not as if a head coach only calls plays and disappears for the other 6 days of the week. Can it not be said that the head coach develops talent? If that's part of his job, he's doing pretty damned well at it. Mayhew isn't out there coaching players to be in the right position to make plays, that's Schwartz. Given the talent he's gotten, he's developed the players pretty well. So try not to assert that he just shows up on sunday and goes back to a batcave until it's time to put the headset on again.

Wow. Nowhere did I assert anything of the sort. You should really try brushing up on reading comprehension and understanding that some words modify sentences to slightly change their meaning. Above, I said that the arguments you made "pretty much" showed that Mayhew is doing a good job. I didn't say it was entirely him. And I never said anything about Schwartz only showing up on game day. Man you really are putting words in my mouth.

All that said, I agree that in the past year or two the talent does seem to be improving, and the coach deserves some credit for that. But that's not the issue. The issue (as I said) is discipline. The difference between teams that win consistently and those that don't isn't talent. For the most part, the talent level across the NFL is not widely different. Sure, there are a few notable exceptions, but in general, the taken level of the top 10 or so teams are mostly similar. The difference is the top teams don't do stupid things, and tend to play disciplined football. They don't get personal foul penalties over and over, they don't overachieve one week, then lose to a team they should easily beat the following week. The top teams typically are near the bottom of the league in penalties against, they tend to beat the teams they should beat almost every time, and they occasionally win the games they shouldn't win. The Lions are pretty much the opposite of all those things. They will sometimes beat the teams they should, but other times they completely crap the bed. It seems to me that it's typically about 50/50.

In the end, the most important issue for me is discipline and playing smart football. If you have the talent, and you play smart football, you'll win most of your games. And from where I sit, this team will not achieve long term success until they start playing smarter, and I don't see it happening under Schwartz. That's why I think he needs to go. Not development of draft picks or anything else. Without discipline and consistency, they won't win.

The Lions are the 10th most penalized team in the NFL. If all you're concerned with is penalties, maybe the 10-1 Seahawks, ranked at the #2 most penalized team in the NFL should rid itself of Pete Carroll? Denver, at #4, should be shopping for a new HC. Don't forget Baltimore, ranked at #7 most penalized as well.


November 30th, 2013, 6:54 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
HechePipe wrote:
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
HechePipe wrote:
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
Every argument you're making to support the progress of the team pretty much shows that Mayhew has done a good job. Selecting the right guys with draft picks and getting key free agents is the job of the front office, not the coach. My issues are discipline & consistency. The team is not disciplined and does not play consistently. The biggest of those to me is discipline, because a disciplined team is typically consistent. It just drives me nuts to see the team committing tons of penalties and basically doing dumb things. You simply do not see successful teams do that, at least not regularly. In every year since Schwartz has been here, the team has been near the top of the league in penalties and dumb mistakes. I get that when he took over he needed to change the culture and make the team tougher, so that can lead to some additional penalties. But the need to establish the team toughness is long since over. Everyone knows the Lions are a tough team. Now they need to learn to be tough and smart. And that comes from the top. As I said before, I see Schwartz as being similar to a lot of other coaches who are very good position coaches or coordinators, but don't make the best head coaches. I'm thinking Norv Turner as an example. It has nothing to do with the talent level of the team or any of the other things you brought up. To me, it's simply discipline. Good teams don't allow dumb mistakes and discipline break downs to keep happening, and on Detroit it seems those things aren't punished. The head coach seems to be allowing it to continue and doesn't seem to be holding players accountable for those mistakes. That's why I think a change is needed.

It's also not as if a head coach only calls plays and disappears for the other 6 days of the week. Can it not be said that the head coach develops talent? If that's part of his job, he's doing pretty damned well at it. Mayhew isn't out there coaching players to be in the right position to make plays, that's Schwartz. Given the talent he's gotten, he's developed the players pretty well. So try not to assert that he just shows up on sunday and goes back to a batcave until it's time to put the headset on again.

Wow. Nowhere did I assert anything of the sort. You should really try brushing up on reading comprehension and understanding that some words modify sentences to slightly change their meaning. Above, I said that the arguments you made "pretty much" showed that Mayhew is doing a good job. I didn't say it was entirely him. And I never said anything about Schwartz only showing up on game day. Man you really are putting words in my mouth.

All that said, I agree that in the past year or two the talent does seem to be improving, and the coach deserves some credit for that. But that's not the issue. The issue (as I said) is discipline. The difference between teams that win consistently and those that don't isn't talent. For the most part, the talent level across the NFL is not widely different. Sure, there are a few notable exceptions, but in general, the taken level of the top 10 or so teams are mostly similar. The difference is the top teams don't do stupid things, and tend to play disciplined football. They don't get personal foul penalties over and over, they don't overachieve one week, then lose to a team they should easily beat the following week. The top teams typically are near the bottom of the league in penalties against, they tend to beat the teams they should beat almost every time, and they occasionally win the games they shouldn't win. The Lions are pretty much the opposite of all those things. They will sometimes beat the teams they should, but other times they completely crap the bed. It seems to me that it's typically about 50/50.

In the end, the most important issue for me is discipline and playing smart football. If you have the talent, and you play smart football, you'll win most of your games. And from where I sit, this team will not achieve long term success until they start playing smarter, and I don't see it happening under Schwartz. That's why I think he needs to go. Not development of draft picks or anything else. Without discipline and consistency, they won't win.

The Lions are the 10th most penalized team in the NFL. If all you're concerned with is penalties, maybe the 10-1 Seahawks, ranked at the #2 most penalized team in the NFL should rid itself of Pete Carroll? Denver, at #4, should be shopping for a new HC. Don't forget Baltimore, ranked at #7 most penalized as well.


So only penalties fall under discipline in your eyes. Got it. Now we have a sense of just how myopic your vision is between a disciplined and undisciplined team.

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November 30th, 2013, 10:14 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
m2karateman wrote:
HechePipe wrote:
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
HechePipe wrote:
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
Every argument you're making to support the progress of the team pretty much shows that Mayhew has done a good job. Selecting the right guys with draft picks and getting key free agents is the job of the front office, not the coach. My issues are discipline & consistency. The team is not disciplined and does not play consistently. The biggest of those to me is discipline, because a disciplined team is typically consistent. It just drives me nuts to see the team committing tons of penalties and basically doing dumb things. You simply do not see successful teams do that, at least not regularly. In every year since Schwartz has been here, the team has been near the top of the league in penalties and dumb mistakes. I get that when he took over he needed to change the culture and make the team tougher, so that can lead to some additional penalties. But the need to establish the team toughness is long since over. Everyone knows the Lions are a tough team. Now they need to learn to be tough and smart. And that comes from the top. As I said before, I see Schwartz as being similar to a lot of other coaches who are very good position coaches or coordinators, but don't make the best head coaches. I'm thinking Norv Turner as an example. It has nothing to do with the talent level of the team or any of the other things you brought up. To me, it's simply discipline. Good teams don't allow dumb mistakes and discipline break downs to keep happening, and on Detroit it seems those things aren't punished. The head coach seems to be allowing it to continue and doesn't seem to be holding players accountable for those mistakes. That's why I think a change is needed.

It's also not as if a head coach only calls plays and disappears for the other 6 days of the week. Can it not be said that the head coach develops talent? If that's part of his job, he's doing pretty damned well at it. Mayhew isn't out there coaching players to be in the right position to make plays, that's Schwartz. Given the talent he's gotten, he's developed the players pretty well. So try not to assert that he just shows up on sunday and goes back to a batcave until it's time to put the headset on again.

Wow. Nowhere did I assert anything of the sort. You should really try brushing up on reading comprehension and understanding that some words modify sentences to slightly change their meaning. Above, I said that the arguments you made "pretty much" showed that Mayhew is doing a good job. I didn't say it was entirely him. And I never said anything about Schwartz only showing up on game day. Man you really are putting words in my mouth.

All that said, I agree that in the past year or two the talent does seem to be improving, and the coach deserves some credit for that. But that's not the issue. The issue (as I said) is discipline. The difference between teams that win consistently and those that don't isn't talent. For the most part, the talent level across the NFL is not widely different. Sure, there are a few notable exceptions, but in general, the taken level of the top 10 or so teams are mostly similar. The difference is the top teams don't do stupid things, and tend to play disciplined football. They don't get personal foul penalties over and over, they don't overachieve one week, then lose to a team they should easily beat the following week. The top teams typically are near the bottom of the league in penalties against, they tend to beat the teams they should beat almost every time, and they occasionally win the games they shouldn't win. The Lions are pretty much the opposite of all those things. They will sometimes beat the teams they should, but other times they completely crap the bed. It seems to me that it's typically about 50/50.

In the end, the most important issue for me is discipline and playing smart football. If you have the talent, and you play smart football, you'll win most of your games. And from where I sit, this team will not achieve long term success until they start playing smarter, and I don't see it happening under Schwartz. That's why I think he needs to go. Not development of draft picks or anything else. Without discipline and consistency, they won't win.

The Lions are the 10th most penalized team in the NFL. If all you're concerned with is penalties, maybe the 10-1 Seahawks, ranked at the #2 most penalized team in the NFL should rid itself of Pete Carroll? Denver, at #4, should be shopping for a new HC. Don't forget Baltimore, ranked at #7 most penalized as well.


So only penalties fall under discipline in your eyes. Got it. Now we have a sense of just how myopic your vision is between a disciplined and undisciplined team.

Perhaps you can enlighten me... What else is so undisciplined about this team?


November 30th, 2013, 10:18 pm
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Post Re: Lions Have the Talent, Schwartz Needs to Go
Growler wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
And let's face facts here...do you REALLY think the Lions get into the playoffs this season if the Packers and Bears wouldn't have had injury issues? I don't believe they would have, and I certainly know others believe the same way. So watching this team beat up on Green Bay was great, but it doesn't erase the stumbling of this team the previous two weeks against teams that were struggling before they faced the Lions.


I agree with M2K. Also, the Lions have NOT made the playoffs yet. Given the way they've been playing lately (multiple turnovers in each game) they could lose to any of the Eagles, Giants, and/or Ravens. What if they cough up four turnovers against any of those three teams like they just did to the Packers? Heck, they lost to rookie-quarterback-helmed Tampa Bay (!!!) (at home after a disappointing road loss in Pittsburgh), so Minnesota could beat them too. What happens if they have a couple turnovers and the opposing team has a semi-competent offense?

Furthermore, they've now put themselves in a position where if Chicago runs the table against a relatively easy schedule (and I think they have the capability to do it) the Lions will not win the division and make the playoffs unless they, too, run the table. Assuming that Chicago beats the Vikings, the Lions will have to at least match Chicago's record for the final four games.

I think the Lions can (and should) win all four of their remaining games. Unfortunately, they've also demonstrated that they also have the ability to lose any and/or all of those games. The only real consistency with this team so far is their ability to throw and fumble games away. Also, keep in mind that but for a boneheaded inopportune holding penalty on a Dallas offensive lineman, the Lions would have a 6-6 record right now.

...And that's the problem. They don't have any kind of consistency and they continuously suffer from self-destructive game-killing errors. It isn't happening in an isolated single-game, nor even two games. We've now seen four games like this from them (Dallas, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, and Green Bay). I know they won in convincing fashion yesterday, but they also had 4 turnovers. I don't know what kinds of issues Green Bay is having, but they seemed to have the talent of a 2-14 team or worse. Against an average team they probably would have lost. (Teams that have 4 turnovers normally lose.) What would have happened if they played the same team but with an average-skill starting quarterback and an at least competent offensive line?

I don't know how much of that is on the coach or if it's also dumb luck, but when this happens consistently, game after game, you have to start wondering what sort of a role coaching plays in it. The Lions are consistently failing to play up to their potential, and that seems like a coaching issue. They need someone who can coach them to consistently play closer to their potential. I don't know who that coach is or if such a coach is available, but I don't think Schwartz is the answer.


Agreed. I will wait to see how the final 4 games finish out, but if we continue to avg 3+ turnover a game and lose 2 more games we should win I will hope we see the writing on the wall and realize Schwartz is just a mid level coach getting less than even value out of his talent.


November 30th, 2013, 10:31 pm
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