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 Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace message 
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Modmin Dude
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Post Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace message
Reuter wrote:
Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace message
By Philip Pullella

VATICAN CITY Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:49am EST

(Reuters) - Pope Francis said in the first peace message of his pontificate that huge salaries and bonuses are symptoms of an economy based on greed and inequality and called again for nations to narrow the wealth gap.

In his message for the Roman Catholic Church's World Day of Peace, marked around the world on January 1, he also called for sharing of wealth and for nations to shrink the gap between rich and poor, more of whom are getting only "crumbs".

"The grave financial and economic crises of the present time ... have pushed man to seek satisfaction, happiness and security in consumption and earnings out of all proportion to the principles of a sound economy," he said.

"The succession of economic crises should lead to a timely rethinking of our models of economic development and to a change in lifestyles," he said.

Francis, who was named Time magazine's Person of the Year on Wednesday, has urged his own Church to be more fair, frugal and less pompous and to be closer to the poor and suffering.

His message will be sent to national leaders, international organizations such as the United Nations, and NGO's.

Titled "Fraternity, the Foundation and Pathway to Peace", the message also attacked injustice, human trafficking, organized crime and the weapons trade as obstacles to peace.

Anger at multi-million payouts for executives has swept across the globe as the economic crisis has deepened and the gap between the super-rich and the poor has widened.

But last month, Swiss voters rejected a proposal to cap the salaries of top executives at 12 times that of a company's lowest wage, heeding warnings from industry leaders that the measure could harm the country's economy.

CRUMBS

Francis said many places in the world were seeing a "serious rise" in inequality between people living side by side.

He attacked the "widening gap between those who have more and those who must be content with the crumbs", calling on governments to implement "effective policies" to guarantee people's fundamental rights, including access to capital, services, educational resources, healthcare and technology.

The new pope's style is characterized by frugality. He shunned the spacious papal apartment in the Vatican's Apostolic Palace to live in a small suite in a Vatican guest house, and he prefers a Ford Focus to the traditional pope's Mercedes.

A champion of the downtrodden, he visited the island of Lampedusa in southern Italy in July to pay tribute to hundreds of migrants who had died crossing the sea from North Africa.

Last month, in a document seen as a manifesto of his papacy, he attacked unfettered capitalism as "a new tyranny".

Since his election in March as the first non-European pope in 1,300 years, the Argentinian has several times condemned the "idolatry of money" and said it was a depressing sign of the times that a homeless person dying of exposure on the street was no longer news but a slight fall in the stock market is.

(Editing by Louise Ireland)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/ ... =worldNews

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December 12th, 2013, 9:48 am
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Post Re: Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace messa
Unfettered capitalism is the most moral system in the history of humankind.

It is done far more to end human suffering, and to pull people up and out of poverty, than any church. By a factor of about 200 million.


December 12th, 2013, 12:59 pm
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Post Re: Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace messa
Blueskies wrote:
Unfettered capitalism is the most moral system in the history of humankind.

It is done far more to end human suffering, and to pull people up and out of poverty, than any church. By a factor of about 200 million.


I wouldn't necessarily call it a "moral" system, however the outcomes from capitalism have certainly had a huge positive impact on mankind and the quality of our lives. In its pure form, it does have a way of self correcting much like mother nature that other systems, even those built upon solid moral principles, can't match do to human behavior.

That said, I think we can all learn a lot from this new pope. While I don't agree with everything, I'm very impressed with him so far as a man who seems to live by what he preaches, something very rarely found in modern society.

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December 12th, 2013, 1:29 pm
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Post Re: Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace messa
Pablo wrote:
That said, I think we can all learn a lot from this new pope. While I don't agree with everything, I'm very impressed with him so far as a man who seems to live by what he preaches, something very rarely found in modern society.
Agreed. Another thing I think we can all learn from him is his messaging. He has been using a different tone than the past Popes. He isn't damning people because they're different, he's trying to include them. A lesson I think many in Washington would behoove to learn.

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December 12th, 2013, 1:42 pm
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Post Re: Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace messa
I absolutely do think capitalism is moral, and its proponents do it a disserve by not defending it on moral grounds. When capitalism comes in, starvation, disease, childhood morality -- these things just vanish. The rights of women flourish; I can go on and on.

When people stop starving in the Sudan it will be because China has become too expensive and they've moved all their factories to Africa.

Even Bono gets it: http://www.nationalreview.com/feed/3540 ... -pollowitz


December 12th, 2013, 1:43 pm
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Post Re: Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace messa
Blueskies wrote:
I absolutely do think capitalism is moral, and its proponents do it a disserve by not defending it on moral grounds. When capitalism comes in, starvation, disease, childhood morality -- these things just vanish. The rights of women flourish; I can go on and on.
Seems to me there's plenty of starvation, disease & child mortality in THIS country.

If I'm not mistaken, the rights of women took an awful long time to 'flourish' (and some may argue they still aren't there yet) until well after capitalism was introduced in this country.

What am I missing? :confused:

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December 12th, 2013, 1:50 pm
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Post Re: Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace messa
Nitpick more, please.

A fraction of the population having to go bed hungry on occasion is unfortunate, but it is not starvation. It is not even in the same league as the following picture, and to insuite that it is, is shameful:

Image

Childhood morality still exists, but again, not even in the same ballpark as the rates in countries with undeveloped economies.

Malaria is quite different from say obesity (if you want to call it a disease), which by the way, could be cured with more capitalism -- not less (stop subsidizing high fructose corn syrup).

Ditto for the rights of women. It takes time but, women become more equal to men as country's economy improves.


December 12th, 2013, 2:02 pm
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Post Re: Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace messa
Blueskies wrote:
I absolutely do think capitalism is moral


Someone wants us all to read Atlas Shrugged... I think the outcome of capitalism is often good, Ayn Rand would have us see it as a way to organize life so men can pursue life freely, pursue prosperity and happiness.

However, I don't think it was designed to be moral. Capitalism, by design, puts an emphasis on profit and wealth accumulation ahead of the interests of people. But it does have greed as one of its moral centers. It also uses or exploits workers for profit, putting that far ahead of human values and needs often. The problem is, systems that focus more on human needs and values often break down due to human nature - Capitalism works more in conjunction with human nature.

I would say it is the most efficient and effective system we have created thus far, and seems to work fairly well in this current day and age. It got us from basically the dark ages to where we are today.

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December 12th, 2013, 2:13 pm
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Post Re: Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace messa
So then, those things don't just vanish as you originally said; thanks for the clarification. That said, I would argue that the rights of women, and everyone for that matter, will become equal once the World's citizens decides its time, not sure if any specific economy would be attributed to it.

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December 12th, 2013, 2:22 pm
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Post Re: Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace messa
How is it not moral? Again, to keep hammering the point home, it has done more to reduce human suffering than any other system of any kind (religious, political, economic).

I suppose if your morality is based on envy, where one person having more toys than another is somehow intrinsically "bad," then yes, it isn't moral. But I think it's better to have few mega rich than for everyone to be equally as poor. Greed is good, but people just don't seem to get that, sadly.

Take Bill Gates, for example. Bill Gates the young man greedily pursued profits at Microsoft, while Bill Gates the middle-aged billionaire spends his time doing charity work. One is inclined to see the second version of Gates as somehow more "moral," but I would argue that Gates did much more good for the world when he was making his billions. Without Microsoft, the PC as we know wouldn't exist, and the existence of the PC has done much more to advance humanity than giving out some free vaccines.


December 12th, 2013, 2:23 pm
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Post Re: Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace messa
Capitalism lets everyone be greedy and your success is based on your skills/drive to get things done. The rest make fewer greedy, but you have a much worse problem of poverty, women's rights, starvation etc, spread out to many more people.

Greed isn't a problem when you're not doing it to harm others. It's called ambition. Corruption is the problem and that's going to happen in every system if there's no accountability. "Too big to fail," Congressman and senators not being held to the same levels of judgement as the people they represent.... That's the problem in our system, not the economic version of it.

Capitalism is based on success. It's what morals are about. The problem is that people aren't all moral. Economic systems aren't about the welfare of people. People are supposed to worry about the welfare of people. We all judge ourselves on our own values, and people are the ones that run the system. So at times it will seem more moral than others, but to say a system itself is immoral? Please.

And what we have in this system isn't pure capitalism. It's capitalism with a socialist system hybrid underneath of it that is making things harder. You can't spread the wealth unless you're taking it from somewhere else. You can't expect success when you lower the desire to innovate. Why succeed if you'll get punished harder than those that do nothing? It's like asking students to strive for A's when only C's will be given out. Drag the entire system down to the lowest common denominator and it will fall under the weight of what's being given away. So sure, we can help people for a very short amount of time before we're all at the same level.


December 12th, 2013, 3:32 pm
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Post Re: Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace messa
The most greedy are those that sit on their @ss and collect government benefits. They WANT their EBT Cards, housing subsidies, EIC credits, and numerous other benefits to support their parasitic lifestyle. I say F#ck You! If you don't like my comment, get a f%cking job and pay taxes like me.

If the Pope doesn't like my comment, he can choke on a dick too. Since I'm an atheist, I don't care what the Pope thinks. It's not like he's someone I look up to or anything.

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December 12th, 2013, 4:26 pm
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Post Re: Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace messa
slybri19 wrote:
The most greedy are those that sit on their @ss and collect government benefits. They WANT their EBT Cards, housing subsidies, EIC credits, and numerous other benefits to support their parasitic lifestyle. I say F#ck You! If you don't like my comment, get a f%cking job and pay taxes like me.

If the Pope doesn't like my comment, he can choke on a dick too. Since I'm an atheist, I don't care what the Pope thinks. It's not like he's someone I look up to or anything.

I'm not a religious person, so I have no allegiance to the Pope, and this has nothing to do with him. Just to be clear.

With that said, I know you think you're just fighting fire with fire re:liberals and using others tactics against them. But in my opinion, all you're doing is being an bunghole. Your posts sometimes have valid points, but mostly they just come across as vitriolic, meaningless rants of bitter little man. I hope for your own sake and for the sake of those around you that you can find some way to let it all go, because that's just no way to live.

Then again, maybe it's just your internet muscles showing and in real life you're a lovely guy. Since I only know you online, all I see is an bunghole. And when I have a choice, I don't associate with assholes. So, enjoy your spiteful little world. I'll be ignoring you from here on out.

It's sad, because you used to offer meaningful things to this board.

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December 12th, 2013, 4:46 pm
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Post Re: Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace messa
Whatever. If you had truly read what I've said over the years, you would have realized that I was an atheist. Do I give a sh!t about what you think about my religious beliefs? Nope. Deal with it.

As for the other useful idiot/uninformed voters out there, I'm usually on the side of the religious despite my sometimes contrary opinions regarding their beliefs. I want to believe that the previous @sshole just doesn't understand me.

IMO, the number one reason why our society has denigrated is because of the breakdown of the family. While this is a religious principle, it is also one shared by those that have no faith like myself. It has led to poverty, entitlements, and a "greedy" society at the tax payer expense. Prove me wrong.

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December 12th, 2013, 5:07 pm
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Post Re: Pope attacks mega-salaries and wealth gap in peace messa
slybri19 wrote:
Since I'm an atheist, I don't care what the Pope thinks. It's not like he's someone I look up to or anything.


Wow! As an atheist (or more truly an agnostic), I still recognize that the Pope is a thought leader for a huge mass of people. Based on his initial start in the office, I absolutely do look up to him and appreciate the needed changes he is making within the Catholic Church. I'm not a devot Buddhist either, but really appreciate the humility of the Dalai Lama and look up to him immensely. I've also admired leaders from around the world, even though I don't live in their countries. Compassion can be found outside of the small sphere of influence you wrap your life around and even if you don't believe in their thoughts/beliefs/philosophies, there is always much to learn from them and others...

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December 12th, 2013, 5:28 pm
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