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 Christian vs Science debate tonight 
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Post Christian vs Science debate tonight
I just received this post today on my facebook, and I'm sharing it with those who might want to listen in....

https://www.facebook.com/events/1401431213444932/

Ken Ham vs. Bill Nye Debate, tonight via livecast in Cincinnati

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February 4th, 2014, 5:22 pm
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Post Re: Christian vs Science debate tonight
Not that it is the end all be all, but I don't believe either one of these guys has as much as a masters degree, let alone a PHD unless you count honorary degrees.

Here is my predicted outcome:

Believers think Ham wins
Non-Believers think Nye wins

Funny how we tend to side with our preconceived notions, giving credit to ideas that mirror our own and discount those that don't.

Regardless, I'm always interested in how these arguments are framed - thanks for sharing WE4C.

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February 4th, 2014, 6:01 pm
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Post Re: Christian vs Science debate tonight
Pablo wrote:
Not that it is the end all be all, but I don't believe either one of these guys has as much as a masters degree, let alone a PHD unless you count honorary degrees.

Here is my predicted outcome:

Believers think Ham wins
Non-Believers think Nye wins

Funny how we tend to side with our preconceived notions, giving credit to ideas that mirror our own and discount those that don't.

Regardless, I'm always interested in how these arguments are framed - thanks for sharing WE4C.
As Ham is a young-Earth creationist, and an evangelical Christian, I figure he has a handicap walking in. Bill Nye probably cherry picked the easiest person to debate. I hope I am wrong, but doubtful.

More than likely (if I watched) I would be screaming at Ham to have better questions and better answers. I will probably review the debate afterwards, as I do virtually every political debate of merit.

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February 4th, 2014, 7:23 pm
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Post Re: Christian vs Science debate tonight
Pablo, I did it for you because I thought you might give it a decent look. I don't have a horse in the race, so i'm not going to watch it. But, I'd really like to get you to listen to Dr. scripture on creation, he does hold several degrees in microbiology and more.

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February 4th, 2014, 8:55 pm
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Post Re: Christian vs Science debate tonight
Here are the qualifications on Dr. Ben Scripture, and he has his own radio show, and website called Scripture on Creation. Would you be interested in looking at that? Since this is up your alley?

Ben Scripture has a Ph.D. in Biochemistry ('98) from the University of Notre Dame, South Bend, IN. He has earned degrees from the University of California at Berkeley ('76, A.B., Zoology), and Grace Theological Seminary, Winona Lake, IN ('87, M.Div.).

His professional experience includes research in Microbiology and Biochemistry at Case Western Reserve University Medical School, Cleveland, OH; research for his doctorate was in the field of molecular biology. He taught Biology and Genetics courses at Grace College, Winona Lake, IN, and Biochemistry at Manchester College, North Manchester, IN. He has articles published in the Journal of Biological Chemistry and the Journal of Molecular Biology. He hosts weekly radio programs, Scripture On Creation and That's What Scripture Says on radio stations in Ft. Wayne and Indianapolis, IN, and on the Good News Network stations covering the southeastern region of the United States.

Ben and Karen were married in '78. The Scriptures have two children, Luke and Carolyn. He has been a teaching elder in Bethany Fellowship, Warsaw, IN since '87.

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February 5th, 2014, 11:25 am
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Post Re: Christian vs Science debate tonight
I listened to some since my connection with the weather was a little spotty so the stream kept cutting in and out. It was nice to hear two educated people have a decent discussion, yet both fell short by using assumptions or overlooking the obvious. Both avoided certain answers or went off onto sidetracked thoughts that didn't answer the questions. I'll have to go back and listen to the entire thing, but both were right in some aspects and both were wrong in just as many.


February 5th, 2014, 11:37 am
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Post Re: Christian vs Science debate tonight
I watched most of the debate today. To me, this was just illustrative of something I've said here before: there really can't be a debate between these two sides because they are two completely different ways of looking at the world, and that difference makes it so that meaningful debate is impossible. It lays out as follows (and yes, these are generalizations so I know they won't apply to everyone, but I think they mostly hold true):

- Both sides recognize (mostly) that there are certain things which are known and certain things which are not. For example, It is known (and measurable) that the universe is expanding. Why is not completely known though. So here we have a good example of some knowns, and some unknowns.
- Religious people (people of faith), tend to view the world through a lens that says that the unknown/unexplainable things are the way they are due to God. God made them that way, or wants them that way, etc., and we can never know why because God is an infinite, all knowing, mysterious entity. There is no way to measure or test this. It requires belief. Belief in God and that he created everything.
- Science (I'm referring to the scientific community in general) tends to look at the unknown/unexplainable things and try to come up with ways to test, explain, prove, etc. It doesn't ask for belief or faith. It makes hypotheses or guesses as to what it may be, and then sets out to prove or disprove them. But none of it requires belief. It does require an acceptance of knowledge of things as they are currently known, and some of that is up to interpretation. But if, over time, things are tested/observed/repeated/etc. enough, they either become accepted theories or laws. If that doesn't occur, more research is done until it does happen, or it is disproved.

The fundamental difference is belief. When one group approaches the debate (and life, really) with belief as a requirement and the other does not, it is as if they are speaking different languages. As I said before, this all occurred to me when I was speaking with my family about it. Some of my family members made several statements that they "didn't believe" the science. That was when it clicked for me. Belief is a key component of their lives, and as such it becomes a major factor in their interpretation. Once I realized this, I knew that no amount of discussion would ever matter, because they would simply not "believe" the scientific side.

I'm not saying they are right or wrong. It is just an observation. My observation may not even be correct. But it's how I relate to the discussion. So there's my grain of salt in the convo...

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February 5th, 2014, 12:04 pm
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Post Re: Christian vs Science debate tonight
The defining point was Nye asking Ham what would make him change his mind.

Ham said nothing would. Because the Bible was truth.

There you go. Case closed.

In fact, one question to the two men pretty well summed up the whole thing:

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-ne ... -any-minds
Quote:
Q. What would make you change your mind about your position?"
Nye: Evidence
Ham: Nothing.

The strangest part of the whole thing to me is that those folks represented by Ham seem to have staked their beliefs on the one unnecessary part of the controversy:

The time involved.

Ham is a "young Earth" creationist. Folks who believe that say that the actually creation started between six and 10,000 years ago. That's the one part of creationism that is easily disproved by scientific fact, although they insist that a God who can create the universe can make it look older than it actually is.

But why?

What would be the point of that? Why would God want to make us think the world is younger than it actually is?

More important, though, is that simply looking at Genesis and accepting that the creation myth would not be weakened at all by thinking the "days" of creation couldn't have been years, decades, centuries or longer, seems to make perfect sense.

So when one of Ham's "witnesses" says "I invented the MRI machine and I believe God created the universe in six 24-hour days," all that makes me do is worry about having an MRI.

In one respect, the "debate" reminded me of "Inherit the Wind," when creationist lawyer Matthew Harrison Brady says that he is "more interested in the Rock of Ages than the age of rocks."

Ham kept coming back to the Bible as his evidence. He believes what he believes because it says so in scripture. Somewhat of a circular agrument -- the Bible is true because the Bible says so.

It's hard to imagine a reasonable person saying Ham proved his point, especially since all he really can say is that he believes what he believes because of his faith.

In fact, his argument against evolution -- we can't know it because we didn't see it happen -- would fit perfectly in describing his position too.


February 5th, 2014, 12:25 pm
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Post Re: Christian vs Science debate tonight
I did not see the debate, but I've read a few reviews. This from the Daily Beast,

Quote:
Actually, there are two other reasons that Nye might have done so... The first is that Nye, for all his bow-tied charm, is at heart a publicity-hungry cynic, eager to reestablish the national reputation he once had as the host of a PBS show.

Possibility number two is that Nye is clueless—that, for all his skill as a science communicator, Nye has less political acumen than your average wombat.

After watching the debate, I’m leaning toward that second possibility. Last night, it was easy to pick out the smarter man on the stage. Oddly, it was the same man who was arguing that the earth is 6,000 years old.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/05/the-bill-nye-ken-ham-debate-was-a-nightmare-for-science.html

In short, the Daily Beast felt Ham won on style; on political points. They felt Nye won because science has the best answers... but they would have thought that if Nye showed up and took a nap... which according to them, he may have.

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February 5th, 2014, 12:35 pm
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Post Re: Christian vs Science debate tonight
Pablo wrote:
Believers think Ham wins
Non-Believers think Nye wins


Like my SB prediction, I was wrong again - very wrong. Couldn't be more wrong if I tried. Call me Mr. Wrong if you will because... I wanted to check this debate out from the Christian viewpoint so I went over to Christian Today to see what they thought.

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/b ... /35688.htm

You can watch it there. If you vote in their poll of who won the debate, there are over 27K votes in and 92% said Nye won. That is pretty telling given the obvious Christian audience.

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February 5th, 2014, 1:19 pm
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Post Re: Christian vs Science debate tonight
Or it tells you the state of the church today which has swallowed the "relevant truth" lie. I know that's a harsh statement, but truth can not be relevant, it either is or isn't. By making it relevant, then you've watered it down and made it based upon personal perspective. Believe it or not, you're starting to see a split in the church as well. Those who are determined to follow after Jesus Christ, and those who are more, um, commercial.

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February 5th, 2014, 1:29 pm
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Post Re: Christian vs Science debate tonight
Online polls are far from scientific and can be easily gamed.

But the majority of Christians globally accept evolution, or at least a version of it guided by God's hand.

Young earth creationism is, for the most part, confined to a few loons in the US (sad to say).


February 5th, 2014, 1:44 pm
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Post Re: Christian vs Science debate tonight
Blueskies wrote:
Online polls are far from scientific and can be easily gamed.

But the majority of Christians globally accept evolution, or at least a version of it guided by God's hand.

Young earth creationism is, for the most part, confined to a few loons in the US (sad to say).
Geez, Blue and and for the most part agree. I think most Christians are good with the earth being older than 6,000 years. It's a tough sell to debate otherwise. It doesn't make them less Christian, just more wary of certain translations of the bible.

According to Christians, 'Young Earth Creation' may be accepted as true and accurate or not.

According to Atheists it is not.

Nye went into the debate with the jury rigged.

I differ from Blue in that as always, he feels being insulting or vulgar somehow makes him look better... which if true really doesn't say much for his looks.

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February 5th, 2014, 2:21 pm
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Post Re: Christian vs Science debate tonight
In the beginning, GOD created the Heavens and the Earth.

PERIOD

A little something called the 1st day has not happened yet.

Could be a trillion years before the 1st day happened.


February 5th, 2014, 2:30 pm
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Post Re: Christian vs Science debate tonight
As anti-religious as I am, I can't deny the role many religious people have had in shaping our understanding of the world and advancing science.

I mean, the originator of the Big Bang theory was a Catholic priest, and monks have historically played a huge role in scientific advancement.

This sort of religion vs science false dichotomy is largely a creation of American ignorance.


February 5th, 2014, 3:29 pm
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