View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently October 21st, 2014, 8:08 am



Reply to topic  [ 137 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
 Planet X: discussion 
Author Message
Baton Girl

Joined: April 3rd, 2014, 12:35 pm
Posts: 14
Post Re: Planet X: discussion
Pablo wrote:
"Easy"? - as I suggested, Christians will quickly begin to "re-interpret" things that don't fall their way and reveal a false prophet. Misdirection works well in magic, not so much in reality unless you really want to believe so hard you are willing to sacrifice common sense. So you are saying that when Jesus was speaking to his people and said "this generation" he was "talking in God's time" and not directly to them? Then let me break this down word for word for you...

Matthew 24:34 wrote:
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


Well, verily means "in truth", I say unto you means he is speaking directly to those who are listening (and in their terms) - notice he didn't say to God or his Lord speaking in those terms, This generation shall not pass means those listening (or the majority) shall not die, till all these things be fulfilled until all I've claimed will happen has happened.


lol, context, context, context. Everything must be understood in context. One verse does not always an answer make. If you rewind this verse a bit you'll notice something huge that clearly the first century church missed. (I blame selective hearing on this one, which we're all guilty of) But if you roll back a few verses, it gives you a criteria for the second coming.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—

Hasn't happened yet, and can't until the 3rd temple. Was there a prior abomination of desolation? Yes, that one happened with Antiacus Epiphanies (sp?) during the Maccabeean period, which was somewhere (Not sure the exact dates) between the end of the Old Testament (Malachi) and the birth of Christ, which is about a 400 year period. So if Christ, who came after that abomination, said that it was still to come, how can it have been already fulfilled? Well, the answer is simple. Foreshadowing. There's lots of that in the bible. Also typologies too. BTW, go study typologies. The information is fascinating. Anyhow, per Christ's words the abomination had to come first, and since it never happened between Christ's death and the destruction of the temple, the only place it can happen is after the 3rd temple is built. That's not yet happened, but if you look at Israel, they're preparing for it right now. There's also the latter verse 29 that says a ton about this.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

I'd say that's pretty clear TBH. First off, this has never happened in history, and by all rights it can't happen because you can't darken the sun, moon and stars all at the same time through normal forces, short of a complete and total global cloud cover, and right now that's impossible. In the future, probably, and it'll have to be a divine act, but so far it hasn't happened and can't by normal natural mechanisms. Did the first century church miss this? Absolutely, and for the same reasons we miss stuff today. IE, lack of understanding. Were they wrong in assuming that Christ would return in their lifetimes, just like everyone else? No, because Christ said, "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." Sounds like they were following orders.

There's also something else you should consider. Christ talked in idioms and parables. One of the idioms he used was the fig tree coming alive again like in spring. Remember my statement above? Pretty much every scholar I know of (well, the legitimate ones anyways) all agree that the fig tree represents the rebirth of Israel, which happened in 1948. So, if Christ mentioned the fig tree as one of the signs, was it possible that he lied to them? No, because he gave them the clue that "When this and this and this sign happens, THEN THAT generation which sees them will not pass away until all are fulfilled. The initiating signs had to occur first before the rest of the prediction was in force. It's sorta like how contracts work. You can sign a direct TV contract all day long, but until you put money on the table, the contract isn't in force, nor does your service. The money is a prerequisite to the contract coming into force. The same is true of Christ's predictions. The things he listed as precursors had to occur before the next items could happen. With none of that happening in the first century, and the temple being gone since 70AD, none of it was possible, therefore his predictions were still future until 1948 came about. Now they're active.

Quote:
Pretty black and white, but you don't have to take my word for it...let's see what CS Lewis, considered to be one of the greatest Christian thinkers/apologetics of all time, thought on the subject...

CS Lewis wrote:
“Say what you like, the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, 'This generation shall not pass till all these things be done.' And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else."

Um, that's not from CS Lewis himself. It's from the book "The Essential C. S. Lewis" written by Lyle W. Dorsett. His is a random collection of works by CS Lewis, but is NOT one of CS Lewis's Christian writings. From what I can gather it sorta tosses all his stuff together into a big pot, stirs it up, then pours it out as a mismatched mass of goo unrecognizable from the original. It also seems to do its best to attack Christianity and Lewis's own faith by blending in some of his Christian writings along with his pre-Christian rants which were, by all accounts, very brutal towards Christians. This is because prior to getting saved Lewis was about as staunch an atheist as you get. Based on the way that quote you gave reads, it likely comes from one of his pre-Christian writings which, as I said, were very critical of Christians. But if you read his later, post salvation works, like "Mere Christianity" you'll find a whole different person than the one that Dorsett presents in his book which is, from what I was able to pull together, designed to discredit Lewis and Christianity in general. So if you're gonna quote Lewis, at least do it directly out of one of his own post Christian writings and not someone else's third party works.


April 17th, 2014, 12:54 pm
Profile
Baton Girl

Joined: April 3rd, 2014, 12:35 pm
Posts: 14
Post Re: Planet X: discussion
rao wrote:
1. Ok, the more I've read about it and from what you and others have said so far I understand that Jesus spoke in parables. Matthew 13:10-11 shows that, but I would like to know where you got that he spoke in ways over the disciples heads. Is there also a verse that states this? Also Matthew 24:32-35 speaks of the parable of the fig tree, but it's pretty obvious when he's speaking 24:34 he is speaking quite distinctly to the people in front of him and the idea he's speaking to another generation is just wishful thinking.

Hey, great question! :D Matthew 13:36 has your answer. 'Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."' That clearly says they didn't understand what he was saying. The many questions they asked him also show that they didn't quite grasp what he was saying and wanted him to "dumb it down" a bit more.

Quote:
3. What I'm saying is it's obvious the statue in the dream was symbolic of something else because it is said to be. No where in the Bible as far as I know, states the 7 churches are symbolic of anything. They are 7 churches Jesus challenges to better follow the spirit of their church and by conquering their challenge they will be rewarded. Their just is no reason to believe these are symbols of eras. There is no hint or suggestion that anyone is to interpret the churches as anything other than 7 actual churches. Just because their is symbolism in the Bible does not mean you can just apply symbolism to anything in the Bible.

I take it you haven't done a study on Revelation? If you haven't, I recommend you do, because I'm explaining this in the best way I know how, but there are greater minds out there who can explain it a lot better. I'm taking the symbolism from the fact that the book of Revelation is full of it, and it's full of verses with many meanings. I could try to explain this better, but since I haven't done a massive amount of study on this, beyond what got me to where I am right now on this topic, I'm going to refer you to someone who knows a whole lot more on this than me. I recommend either David Jeremiah's study on Revelation called "Escape the Coming Night". He talks on a normal average joe's level and keeps things simple while explaining a ton. If you want the more technical and "nerdish" version, which goes into a lot of science and far more complex and complicated explanations, go with Chuck Missler's study on Revelation. He nerds out on you a lot, but what you come away with is mind blowing. Even I'm still trying to wrap my mind around everything he taught.

Quote:
4. Difficulty is irrelevant. Even if it felt impossible it still doesn't change that fact that it could have been done if people had embraced Christianity everywhere it was taken. I'd even go so far to say that they succeeded in preaching all over the world already. I'd bet there isn't a continent or island that hasn't already had a Christan visitor.

Right, maybe. We don't know. But since there's clearly people who've never heard the gospel (you'd be shocked how many even here in America have never once heard of Christ or the bible. I kid you not. I run into them while witnessing) then it can't be fulfilled. Maybe in part, but not in its entirety. There's also Romans 11:25 you have to consider when asking if the entire world has been evangelized. "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,"

If the end hasn't come, then clearly not everyone has heard the gospel, which includes people not yet born, because Israel won't turn back to God in whole (they're doing it in part now, but only in small handfuls) as a nation until AFTER every gentile that will be saved has been saved. When that last person has been saved, then the gospel will officially have reached the entire world. I'll admit it's probably very close now and has been several times in history, but it wasn't that time yet, and it still isn't, or else the rapture would have already occurred.

Also, one only needs look at all the prophesies shaping up right now. Remember all the talk about Ezekiel 38? Remember how it's supposed to be Russia attacking Israel? Take a look at this video. Sure sounds like part of the setup for Ez38 is coming together. :D

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAgbjnNI5wc[/youtube]

EDIT: Hmm, clearly the board doesn't like my youtube link as it won't convert it. You'll probably have to copy and paste to make it work. Sorry. ^_^;;


April 17th, 2014, 1:14 pm
Profile
ST Coordinator – Danny Crossman
User avatar

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 am
Posts: 3818
Location: Davison Mi
Post Re: Planet X: discussion
Steven, thank you for comming back, and more importantly giving references. I have not gone away, but since you have given us some places to look up your referencces it will take me a bit to consume and digest it. gimmie a day or two and I will have some follow up questions for you, but be warned...you still have yet to give a valid reason not to trust NASA. This is a must for me to even begin to buy into this whole 9th planet (sorry Pluto....i still dont mean you ;) ) theory.

_________________
2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion


April 17th, 2014, 1:36 pm
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 am
Posts: 9489
Location: Dallas
Post Re: Planet X: discussion
stevenlake wrote:
If you rewind this verse a bit you'll notice something huge that clearly the first century church missed. (I blame selective hearing on this one, which we're all guilty of) But if you roll back a few verses, it gives you a criteria for the second coming.


Nice - misdirection as I stated as a common ploy. Let's turn our attention to another verse, then try to get a different "context" to view re-interpret this one. Then let's mix in some idioms and parables, throw in a few more convoluted verses - presto, I'm now confused and forgot the original point.

So the first century church - the one's who were there and heard this first or second hand - are the one's who you want to blame for "selective hearing". Not those who come 25 generations later and have translated it through multiple languages with various agendas while picking and choosing what to include and what to exclude? Talk about contextual issues, but we will get into that later...

But I'll give you some credit and you are correct when you said
stevenlake wrote:
One verse does not always an answer make
. So let me provide just a few more verses just pointing back to the same timeframe.

“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)

“Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.” (1 Corinthians 10:11)

“And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.” (Hebrews 10:24-25)

“Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.” (1 John 2:18)

The end of all things is near…” (1 Peter 4:7)

“For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

“…the coming of the Lord is near. …the Judge is standing right at the door.” (James 5:8, 9)

“Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.” (Revelation 1:3)

“And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.” And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.“”… (Revelation 22:6,7,10,12,20)

“Do not seek a wife. This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.” (1 Corinthians 7:27,29-31)

BTW - I hope you aren't married based on the above... :twisted: Need more, please let me know.

Now as far as
stevenlake wrote:
context, context, context. Everything must be understood in context.


Agreed, if you really want to put this "into context" as you say - then you must look far beyond the Bible itself to see what it was based on. You need a full understanding of the Jewish texts, both written and oral (later transcribed) and then go back further than that. Before Christ there existed many, many "Christ's" - all with virtually the same exact story. It is a story passed down from generation to generation, from one religion to another, and as you know as a story gets told over and over again some of the facts change - but the gist is still all there (born on 12/25, star above, virgin birth, performed miracles, murdered, resurrected, yada, yada, yada). If you are a seeker of the truth, and have gone through this process and really have full context (and then also somehow rationalize that the great creator of everything ran out of all his creative juices and had to completely plagiarize the story of his own son) - only then do you have a full understanding of who Jesus (or the story of Jesus, regardless of what name he was given in other faiths) was...

All that said, if you live is enhanced by your beliefs, more power to ya and have a blessed day!

_________________
Image
LB Tweet


April 17th, 2014, 3:34 pm
Profile WWW
Baton Girl

Joined: April 3rd, 2014, 12:35 pm
Posts: 14
Post Re: Planet X: discussion
regularjoe12 wrote:
Steven, thank you for comming back, and more importantly giving references. I have not gone away, but since you have given us some places to look up your referencces it will take me a bit to consume and digest it. gimmie a day or two and I will have some follow up questions for you, but be warned...you still have yet to give a valid reason not to trust NASA. This is a must for me to even begin to buy into this whole 9th planet (sorry Pluto....i still dont mean you ;) ) theory.

Not a problem. Like I said before, I was crazy busy with a project. Still am, although the pace has slowed a lot. I usually do 10-14 hour days coding M-Sa every week. Sunday is my only day off. So I put in a lot of hours, hence my lack of time to do things like this much right now. Hmm, now as for your question about NASA, let me see what I can drag up. PS, as an aside, my searches before this turned up a TON of tin foil hatters in regards to NASA. Funny reading, but not anywhere close. However, one thing I can throw at you, since you didn't accept the last answer about why NASA lies, I'll toss this one out. NASA, besides being a government agency (which, if you haven't noticed lately, the government lies constantly to us about nearly everything. Just look at Obamacare, the economy and the job numbers.) who is not only beholden to quite a few alphabet agencies, also works very, very closely with the NSA, CIA, DHS and a number of other spy agencies in our government.

Think about that. Spy agencies. Do you really think they're gonna tell you the truth all the time when those guys are involved? Doubtful. Especially since the first rule of spying is, never tel the truth, unless its in your best interests to do so, and even then don't tell it all. Another huge area is all of the coverup NASA did on comet ISON. I'll give a few links, but that was a huge coverup. Look at youtube videos by BPEARTH and other amateur astronomy gurus. They have lots of stuff on the things that NASA *didn't* tell you about ISON. Anyhow, here's just a few I grabbed from a few minutes on Google.

This Rense article does a good job of pointing out a bunch of regular and consistent lies of NASA.
Nasa being excessively secret about something on Mars. I mean, James Bond/MI6 level secret for reasons nobody can figure out.
I can't speak for all these arguments, but he makes a number of good ones about the lies Nasa has told.
Or what about the weather? Yeah, it's not their main job, but they are very ardent supporters of Global Warming, which has been proven to be a gigantic farce.
Nasa lying about solar events.
This one sorta rehashes some of what I posted above, but also provides some new content.
This one has a little bit of UFO tin foil hattery, but it also has some good information worth researching.
Nasa knew about ISON LONG before they ever reported it. Some say 2011, some even before then, even though it's officially labeled C/2012.
A list of possible NASA lies. It's getting too late for me to research them all out, but the few I read seem worth your time to dig further on.

I could provide more, but that should give you some grounds on which to springboard out and do some more homework on your own. Oh, and watch out for the tin foil UFO nuts. There's lots of them out there too crying that NASA is lying. But that's not all that surprising given that they believe in ET. :P Overall though, NASA lies a lot. They have from the beginning. At first it was out of need for secrecy given who we were competing against. Now it's just out of habit, with the boys in black not wanting anything but a small sprinkling of the doctored truth out to suit their needs. As I said, they work for the alphabet spy agencies as part of their job. Do you really think they're gonna tell the truth? Given that I had Secret level clearance while in the Army, there were quite a few things I was told to either say nothing about, or lie and misdirect people. I don't think I ever lied about anything secret that I knew, instead preferring to simply reply, "I'm sorry, but that's classified." That seemed to satisfy everyone I talked to. Well, except the ones with higher clearances than I had. o_0;;

EDIT: After sleeping on this and thinking about it more (with a clearer mind) I think probably the nutshell answer is, they do lie, but they also engage in a lot of "selective truth", telling only what will gain them the things they'll need. To what end? Well, for one, national security. They have this really weird idea of what is "in our best interests" to know and not know. The second, which is also reasonable, is that people panic easily on the silliest of information, so a lot of stuff that is dangerous, or could be perceived as dangerous (the latter being the lesser of the two) is kept quiet to keep the "Sheep" (ie, the general "uneducated" population) from freaking out and causing mass panic and pandemonium. There's also reason three, which is that NASA has an agenda, and anything that doesn't fit into that agenda is either lied about or hidden.

Take a look at NOAA, the EPA and some of the other alphabet agencies dealing with the environment. They've had clear, documented proof for decades that Global Warming is a lie, which thankfully has been exposed of late, yet they continue to press the lie that it's real. Why? Two things. 1) Crony Capitalism. What better way to destroy your competitors than to use junk science to justify the EPA coming in and shutting down your competitors in ways you never could. 2) It allows the government to get away with things they otherwise wouldn't be able to do were that not used as their excuse. So what better rubber stamp answer for their decisions is there than GW where they don't have to explain themselves. They just say, "We're forced to do this because it's causing Global Warming." Think of it like the "cheap answer". Politicians and bureaucrats love them because then they don't have to think of an answer to give you. Especially not one that might tip their hand about what they're doing to you in secret.

Anyhow, I hope that helps you a bit more.


Last edited by stevenlake on April 18th, 2014, 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.



April 17th, 2014, 11:59 pm
Profile
Baton Girl

Joined: April 3rd, 2014, 12:35 pm
Posts: 14
Post Re: Planet X: discussion
Pablo wrote:
“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)

Most of what you're saying is just beating around the bush, trying to avoid all the proofs I gave, or in some way discredit them with little more than poorly worded arguments. But since you threw this one out there, I'll munch on this since I remember this part of my Revelations instruction well. To explain this I'll point simply to John, who wrote Revelation. Was he there for the actual 2nd coming? No. Did he see Jesus coming in his kingdom? Yes. How? Through his vision on Patmos which he wrote down in the book of Revelation.

So yes, that prophesy given by Christ was fulfilled. Just not the way you think it should be. Think that's not possible? Think it doesn't count? Well, how about this. Look at Paul's Damascus road experience. The entire first century church heard about and agreed that'd he'd seen Christ on the road to Damascus. But how? Christ was already ascended. It was done through a very strong vision, and as far as the church was concerned, it counted as seeing the risen Christ just the same as what the 11 (and countless others) saw between Easter and Ascension day. And clearly from other writings of Paul and others it wasn't the only time Paul saw Christ in a vision. So yes, they saw his return back in the 1st century if you want to be all that literal about it.

Now, one last statement. Looking at the way you argue against Christianity, it got me to thinking about something. You don't argue like someone who doesn't believe. You argue like someone who DOES. It's like in the movie "God's Not Dead" where the one student not only argues convincingly that God is alive and real, but also proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the professor believes as well. His only reason for denying God's existence is that he's mad at God for allowing his mom to die when he was a little kid. Thus he grew up hating God and in turn became a hardened atheist constantly trying to convince himself and others that God was dead, that he was a lie. From what I've gathered by your arguments, you're somewhere in that category as well. I can't say with certainty as I don't know you, but that's the impression I've got in my limited time speaking with you. So if that's true, then my question would be, "Why are you mad at God?" Think about that.


April 18th, 2014, 12:08 am
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 am
Posts: 9489
Location: Dallas
Post Re: Planet X: discussion
I know I'm not going to change your mind and bringing in reason or common sense into faith is a fruitless exercise. I don't need the burden of proof to prove something doesn't exist and if you want to believe enough you will, regardless. If you go to a murder trail the lawyers might argue each of over 1,000 items that point to one's guilt. They can twist each item, making those who can't fully think for themselves have some doubt. That video of the suspect in the act, after all, could be a long lost twin couldn't it? Yet when 1,000 different pieces all point to the same thing that alone speaks volumes.

You say I argue like a believer, that is because I once did. Like most people of faith, I was brought up to believe and not question what I have been told. Your typical mindless robot taught blind faith rather than to critically think about it. I grew up, because very curious about everything in life in my 20's and studied many faiths past and present beyond Christianity. That is when things at first became very confusing, but later things started to become much clearer.

I'm not mad at God, I'm lucky to still have both my parents, my brothers, my wife and kids. My life has seen relatively little tragedy, you could say I've really been blessed. Look, I'm not mad at Santa Claus either and I used to believe in him as well. You can't be mad at something that doesn't exist, nor can you blame life rough spots on an imaginary being. It's called life. Are you mad at the tooth fairy? Of course not, that would be silly...

Again, if you haven't studied how the Bible came to be, you have no real "context" as you like to say. You don't know the true history of the Jewish faith which spawned it, they are the experts there and they all come to one simple and logical conclusion about one of their own that you can't see. If you go back further and study faiths that existed before Judaism, you see where much of that Jewish faith comes from as well. It is a series of stories that builds into something you isolate (losing context) called the Bible. Without that context, no true knowledge exist - just expertise on one very small piece of a big picture. If you ever decide to dig deep and get the full context, then we can have a real discussion - if not, we are just arguing over isolated Biblical verses and I have no interest in that. Imagine if you were only ever taught addition in math, you might be the best person in the world at addition, but would then really fully understand numbers and how they work? I can't talk to you about fractions, you just keep going back to addition and that is frustrating. Not only that, you have such a strong belief in addition as the only function of numbers, you don't allow yourself to ever consider that subtraction, multiplication, division, algebra, calculus, etc can possibly exist.

Again, I have no interest in arguing isolated verses within your particular faith - if you do, more power to you and find someone else. If you ever want to really know the truth about Christianity, I welcome you to it. It will take a lot of work (lots of studying multiple faiths), it will take suspending things you have buried deep into your core (few can realistically do this), it will take overcoming the fear that has been instilled in you by your faith (can you risk going to hell?), but I can promise it will be an enlightening journey.

Good luck Steven!

BTW - I'd like to report to everyone that as a non-believer I do steal varies ideas/traditions for many faiths. One of my favorites within many Christian faiths is the observance of lent. Just as Jesus sacrificed himself, we to can "sacrifice" to better ourselves (it is really sad how so many believers can't stick to this or even give it a try because they know they will fail, especially Catholics). For me, over the past 40 days, I've given up red meat, sweets, chips, fast food, fried food, and any drink other than water. I'm down 10 pounds on my annual non-believers lent diet. Tonight, however, I'm taking the family out and I'm getting a huge Cheeseburger, fries, onion rings and a Coke. Can't wait and thank you Jesus!

_________________
Image
LB Tweet


April 18th, 2014, 9:11 am
Profile WWW
QB Coach
User avatar

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pm
Posts: 3039
Location: Elkhart, In.
Post Re: Planet X: discussion
Pablo:

You've made reference to your Jewish friends before and the excellent discussions that you've had, and I also wanted to reference a man who is one of the very few Christians that has actually studied and become a Jewish Rabi. Ray Vanderlaan of Holland, Michigan has done EXTENSIVE study and has traveled throughout the Middle East and America to share what he's learned. I am including a 28 minute clip that's been presented by Focus on the Family for you to take a look at if you should desire. I've listened to several of his teachings and I would like you to know that he is a very strong proponent of stating that the Bible was written BY JEWS FOR JEWS, but that the Greeks (Gentiles) also took the writings and translated them and wrote them down. RVL helps American Christians especially to understand the Bible from a Jewish perspective, and I think this will provide some CONTEXT that you and Steven may appreciate. Be blessed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GHCzopp8qQ

_________________
2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."


April 18th, 2014, 11:18 am
Profile
Baton Girl

Joined: April 3rd, 2014, 12:35 pm
Posts: 14
Post Re: Planet X: discussion
Pablo: Hmm, as I suspected, you're angry at God. The reason? I'm still not totally sure, but again, it's not disbelief, it's anger, likely over something that happened in your life for which you're angry at, and blaming God for. That's something I can't change your mind on or get you to see another side of things because likely the hurt is very deep. Since only God can heal wounded hearts and hurts that deep, I will simply withdraw from further debate and leave this to God to change your heart. But trust me, He can. I'm living proof of it. My dad was an abusive, deadbeat with a spitfire temper who beat his wife and children regularly. By the time I graduated High School I too had a spitfire temper and a bitter hatred for a lot of people. But God found me in the army (notice, I said *He* found me, because I sure wasn't seeking Him) and not only saved my soul, but changed my life.

Anyone from High School would remember my anger problems. I mean, anyone who was in band knows what I nearly did to a couple of freshmen. They got me so mad I stormed across the band room to beat them within an inch of their lives. Some band members recognized this and jumped on me to protect the freshmen. It didn't work because I ended up dragging three of them with me like they weren't even there. It took one of the REALLY big guys in my class to finally pin me down. That's how angry I got back then. But after I got saved God worked on me and took away my anger, replacing it with love in my heart for everyone. I might get frustrated from time to time, but I rarely stay angry very long, if at all. Most times I just shrug it off and walk away. And I'm not the only one with that testimony. Lots of others have been delivered from deep pain that made them hate God and in being changed loved Him and others more than it logically possible.

http://www.charismamag.com/spirit/evang ... compassion

Read that, and I think you'll get what I mean. In the meantime I'll pray that God reaches out and touches you with His love and heals whatever hurts are in your heart that make you hate Him so much. Oh, and one other thing. Remember how I told you that my dad *WAS* an extremely angry deadbeat who beat his wife and kids? God eventually saved him and he's become a very loving father and husband. He hardly ever raises his voice, he does kind things for others that defy logic, and he's been more of a dad to me in the past 6-7 years since getting saved than at anytime before. The change is profound. Where there was once hate, there's amazing love. Where once there were bitter words, they're not kind. And no, it's not because he "found religion" as some would say. When Christ truly enters someone's heart, they're changed in some of the most wonderful, incredible ways, and always for the good. :)

So I too hope that you eventually accept Christ as savior, allow Him to heal your wounds, and transform you into the most wonderful person the world has ever seen. IE, someone who is so wonderful, kind and compassionate that it defies human logic. :)


April 21st, 2014, 7:58 am
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 am
Posts: 9489
Location: Dallas
Post Re: Planet X: discussion
Pablo wrote:
I'm not mad at God, I'm lucky to still have both my parents, my brothers, my wife and kids. My life has seen relatively little tragedy, you could say I've really been blessed. Look, I'm not mad at Santa Claus either and I used to believe in him as well. You can't be mad at something that doesn't exist, nor can you blame life rough spots on an imaginary being. It's called life. Are you mad at the tooth fairy? Of course not, that would be silly...


stevenlake wrote:
Pablo: Hmm, as I suspected, you're angry at God. The reason? I'm still not totally sure, but again, it's not disbelief, it's anger, likely over something that happened in your life for which you're angry at, and blaming God for.


Wow, I guess you can't read. You see or believe what you want, even when the direct evidence states the exact opposite - not surprising. I'm sorry I don't share your faith or believe in the same fairy tale you do, that doesn't make me angry at the character at the center of your fairy tale.

Let me take your logic on, something in your life must have mad you very angry at unicorns. I'm not sure what it is and even if you say the opposite, as I suspected, you are blaming unicorns for something that happened to you. LOL Steven! BTW - if you believe in unicorns, they can have the exact same impact on your life as God.

BTW - I'll repeat, I'm not mad at God. What does make me mad and WE4C can attest to this, is the backwards thinking that his followers often take that is filled with hate towards those not like them (just take gays for example, you will find many examples of this throughout these forums if you care to search - if you do, then you will know who has hate or is mad and who isn't and accepts those different from themselves).

So Steven - why don't you explain to everyone why you are angry at unicorns? Once you answer this, you will understand why I'm angry (actually not) at God.

_________________
Image
LB Tweet


April 21st, 2014, 8:43 am
Profile WWW
QB Coach
User avatar

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pm
Posts: 3039
Location: Elkhart, In.
Post Re: Planet X: discussion
Pablo,
I've been thinking about your response to Steven a lot and then I stop by this morning and I see something else that leads me to ask a question. You state that we have "blind faith" and that it angers you, or upsets you right? Is there a context issue here? If I have faith based upon my experience, as does Steven, and you and several others do not, then to you we're blindly faithful. Why, because you do not share the context of experience in RELATIONSHIP. Religion is not the same thing. Having a relationship with the church is not the same thing either. So if you do not have that context of experience, could that be why you see it as blind faith?

I'm also going to ask permission to ask a personal question based upon your response in the Christianity thread, if you'd rather in private, I will send it there. Please advise.

What did you think of RVL? You of all people, strike me as someone that would get a lot out of him, because of the way he approaches what he teaches...

_________________
2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."


April 21st, 2014, 10:22 am
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 am
Posts: 9489
Location: Dallas
Post Re: Planet X: discussion
I haven't looked at RVL, so I have no opinion of him. Since you clearly stated you had no interest in looking outside your faith - a waste of time as you called it - I have no more time for exploring all the things you want us to keep looking at. Been there, done that. One way relationships obviously work for you, not me. I've done all the research over many years, I've come to the only conclusion that makes sense.

IMO - you have a delusional relationship with an imaginary being. You worship this being to a degree in which you are willing to put "him" in front of your spouse, children, friends, etc. I've learned to put what is real first, sorry. That doesn't make me angry or mad, in makes me rational and sane.

You can clearly see, if you look at any statistical measure, that God/prayer has zero impact on our lives. You can rationalize to yourself that you have seen it work if you like. Your reward will come after we "move on" from this life. I'm living my reward every second of every day, I have no need for a reward once I'm gone. We have different ways of looking at things, we have different ways of looking at relationships. You can call me "angry" because I don't look at things the same way as you. That is your prerogative and doesn't phase me in the least.

Because my time here is precious, I have no more time for this back and forth - quite frankly I have much better uses of my time. If your "relationship" brings you things like peace, joy and happiness, more power to you my friend.

_________________
Image
LB Tweet


April 21st, 2014, 10:50 am
Profile WWW
QB Coach
User avatar

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pm
Posts: 3039
Location: Elkhart, In.
Post Re: Planet X: discussion
Pablo:
Actually RVL answers your questions, but that's okay, if you wish to use my refusal to look at other "truths" as your reason for not checking him out, that's on you...

Maybe it's a "text isn't an accurate form of communication" thing, because I can't hear inflection, nor see facial features, but I detect a tone of pride and arrogance from your "what's real" perspective. You used the example of a study that was conducted in a hospital setting, concerning the use of prayer and it's affects on healing, and then when it failed, it provided the "statistics" you needed to back your theory. That would be a sound argument, if MY prayers moved the heart of God. That goes back to who's in control! In my "blind faith", I realize that I'm NOT in control, and so when I pray, I pray according to how I'm lead. IF that means that I'm moved to pray for Grandpa Jim who has a heart problem, or the stranger that's losing his family; I'd better be praying. But for me to single out individuals, and pray for them, and expect that God is going to do according to MY bidding is foolish. The study was a failure from the beginning if that's the context of how they conducted it. God is not the grocery store in the sky where I put my requests in, and darn it, He'd better answer according to how I asked it. Sadly, many Christians approach their prayer life with that ignorant perspective. But, in my maturation process, I learned that God is at work, and MY duty is to come alongside Him in that venture. As people are shown to me, then it is my duty to be in prayer for them, the results are not up to me, the time is not up to me, I am only to do what I've been asked to do because I love Him. So the thinking is incorrect in the study you stated, because God is not at our beck and call because we tell Him He's supposed to be. It's a matter of Lordship!

Your perspective of my "delusional faith" is based upon your perspective. It's ignorant, and closed minded, because you can not understand the context of RELATIONSHIP with God, through Jesus. All the other god's and holy men instruct their followers to do something in order to obtain paradise, Jesus says, "decide!" By accepting the gift that He offers, because of the price that He paid, we are given eternal life. The doing part that comes after is the journey in which we come to know Him through a wide variety of circumstances.

Pablo, I find it interesting that your time is precious, especially since you're a moderator and your "job" is to spend time here in that context. I did notice that you might have over looked my question concerning whether or not I had your permission to ask you a personal question, based upon a statement you'd made before. I believe it speaks directly to Steven's comment about your issues with God and the church. Again, please advise.

_________________
2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."


April 21st, 2014, 2:13 pm
Profile
Modmin Dude
User avatar

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 am
Posts: 12137
Post Re: Planet X: discussion
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Pablo:
Actually RVL answers your questions, but that's okay, if you wish to use my refusal to look at other "truths" as your reason for not checking him out, that's on you...
Wow! Really? That's your response? So, it's perfectly acceptable for a 'person of faith' to refuse to 'look at other truths' as you say, but not for a non-believer? Interesting to say the least.....
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Your perspective of my "delusional faith" is based upon your perspective. It's ignorant, and closed minded, because you can not understand the context of RELATIONSHIP with God, through Jesus. All the other god's and holy men instruct their followers to do something in order to obtain paradise, Jesus says, "decide!" By accepting the gift that He offers, because of the price that He paid, we are given eternal life. The doing part that comes after is the journey in which we come to know Him through a wide variety of circumstances.
The same could be said of those on your side that think any other belief system, path, spirituality, etc is incorrect. Your side is ignorant and closed minded as well, but heaven forbid a non-believer say anything....

Seems as though your true colors are showing....so much for being understanding and respectful
WarEr4Christ wrote:
Although a lot of my answers are true to SOME extent, many were more reactionary, and didn't illustrate what I've been trying to share for a long time. In my effort to be determined and focused, I did indeed become myopic and arrogant.
The more things change, the more they stay the same....

I do have to wonder why so many people still take part in these types of discussions with you.....

_________________
Quote:
Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....


April 21st, 2014, 2:51 pm
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 am
Posts: 9489
Location: Dallas
Post Re: Planet X: discussion
sorry, I thought your personal question was to watch or something to do with the RVL video. Feel free to ask any question you like.

The study was one of many done and I posted because you asked if any studies had been done, but don't take my word for it. If your prayers worked for Grandpa Jim, then statistically speaking God would be having an impact. Since Christian recovery rates are exactly the same as every other group, God is having zero impact. I've seen various studies done since Francis Galton way back in the 1870's, every non-biased survey had the exact same results - doesn't matter who prays, which God you pray to, or what you pray about. The "power of pray" is imaginary, a delusion if you will for those that believe.

If your anecdotal proof that prayer really existed, it would bare itself out on a bigger scale. Since that isn't the case, all Christians who believe that their prayers were answered actually just fall into normal statistical probabilities and outcomes - they just attribute it to God when it appears to work, the same trap you fall into. There are only two conclusions that can be derived from even the most elementary statistics; 1) God is imaginary, or 2) God does exist, but he doesn't answer prayers. Despite this, your faith is so strong you will continue participating in this ritual despite the obvious issue with it.

My perspective of "delusional faith" is exactly how you view every other belief system. You think yours is special or correct, I simply put it in the same bucket as all the other ones I've explored. What is "ignorant and closed minded" is assuming you are correct without every really exploring what else exist out there and refusing to do so. You can rationalize how it is different, like each one can, but ultimately they all share the same fallacies (like prayer as we have been discussing).

My time is precious and you and I've spend countless hours on this subject. Your time is precious as well, use it wisely my friend. I also agree with you that text isn't always the best form of communication, much is lost in translation. Then again, almost all of your faith is based on a text...

Wags wrote:
Wow! Really? That's your response? So, it's perfectly acceptable for a 'person of faith' to refuse to 'look at other truths' as you say, but not for a non-believer? Interesting to say the least.....


Wags, I've looked at tons of WE4C stuff over the past few years (videos, websites, even his book), that has rarely if ever been reciprocated. In addition, when I've done my research and point out the credibility issues with his postings in the past - it always turns out the same, he never really looked deep into to start with yet he didn't communicate that up front. As Roberto Duran once said, no mas...

_________________
Image
LB Tweet


April 21st, 2014, 3:29 pm
Profile WWW
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 137 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware.