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 Suh's absence from voluntary workouts is bad sign for Lions 
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Post Re: Suh's absence from voluntary workouts is bad sign for Li
BillySims wrote:
And he is likely going to be the best player on someone else's team after next season. Wouldn't you rather get a 1st and 3rd round pick in trade for him instead of a 4th round pick for him as compensation? Because that's what a 3rd round Comp pick is. A 4th rounder. It comes after the 3rd round is completed.

Where do you get the idea that he's likely going to be on someone else's team? Every indication from the team is that they want him here. I'd be shocked if they let him go. Yes he's going to cost a lot, but he's worth it. I can't see the Lions letting him go. I think you're way off in your assessment. In fact, I think they'll get an extension worked out before this season. Either way though, I don't see the Lions letting him go. Good teams are not built by letting the best players leave. It just doesn't happen.

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April 23rd, 2014, 2:57 am
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Post Re: Suh's absence from voluntary workouts is bad sign for Li
Sure is starting to irritate me having Suh absent from everything team related. To me there is no excuse.

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April 23rd, 2014, 5:02 am
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Post Re: Suh's absence from voluntary workouts is bad sign for Li
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
BillySims wrote:
And he is likely going to be the best player on someone else's team after next season. Wouldn't you rather get a 1st and 3rd round pick in trade for him instead of a 4th round pick for him as compensation? Because that's what a 3rd round Comp pick is. A 4th rounder. It comes after the 3rd round is completed.

Where do you get the idea that he's likely going to be on someone else's team? Every indication from the team is that they want him here. I'd be shocked if they let him go. Yes he's going to cost a lot, but he's worth it. I can't see the Lions letting him go. I think you're way off in your assessment. In fact, I think they'll get an extension worked out before this season. Either way though, I don't see the Lions letting him go. Good teams are not built by letting the best players leave. It just doesn't happen.


They won't have the choice but to let him go. You can only negotiate a new contract if the player actually negotiates. Have they even actually began negotiations yet? So far, all I have heard about is 1 delay after another on the negotiations. And if we franchise tag him after next season, we will have to pay him 110% of $22Mlion. So, that ain't happening.


April 23rd, 2014, 9:53 am
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Post Re: Suh's absence from voluntary workouts is bad sign for Li
Ask yourself this question: if Calvin Johnson hadn't redone his deal and chose to stay away from VOLUNTARY team workouts, what would your stance be? Would you start talking about trading him? Would you look at him in a negative light? Or would you blame the team for not having redone his deal before the workouts occurred?

I don't know what is happening in the contract negotiations. I don't know if Suh is playing hardball, or if the team is trying to keep him on the cheap. Whatever the case, Suh's choice to stay away is pretty common place among NFL players in the middle of contract negotiations. Standard practice for most. Why blast him for it? Why talk about trading him because of it? In the end, it's a business and he had to handle it that way. The team is JUST AS RESPONSIBLE for his being absent as he is. As for the idea that Suh needs to be there because of his captaincy or to show 'younger' players what it takes to win, that's pure garbage. Winning teams have had players sit out during contract negotiations, including team captains. They still win.

I am not a huge fan of Ndamukong Suh. I think he lacks some maturity and isn't a complete team player. But he is a dominant player in the middle, and is consistent in how he performs. How good would the D line be without him? If the Lions trade him, then they are FORCED to keep Nick Fairley, and pay him more than what he could be worth. Remember, the LIONS opted out of paying Fairley to ensure keeping him beyond this coming season. There is no DT available in this draft that will be even close to how good Suh is now.

Please, keep your heads about this. He's not thumbing his nose at the team or flipping off the fans. He's doing what most other players in his position do in this scenario.

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April 23rd, 2014, 9:56 am
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Post Re: Suh's absence from voluntary workouts is bad sign for Li
Pablo wrote:
You'd rather get something for him now rather then nothing for him later. Well, first you would get a whole years worth with a PB DT.
What did a whole year of a PB DT do for the Lions last year? Not much from what I can see as they were sitting on their collective arses in January.
Pablo wrote:
Second, you would get a bunch of cap space if he comes off the roster.
Cap space could be gained by trading him too
Pablo wrote:
Third, you would most certainly get a high comp pick.
You'd be happy with a 3rd round comp pick for Suh instead of a 1st (Watkins???) and likely 3rd?
Pablo wrote:
Fourth, you have an entire year to try to sign him to a long-term contract.
And they had all last year and all offseason too, but what did Suh do? Drag his feet. Wait until just a couple months ago to fire his old agent, then took a few weeks selecting a new one and yet still no signing or even progress, as far as we can tell.
Pablo wrote:
TheRealWags wrote:
My reasoning is simple: Do Indy, Denver, New England, New Orleans, Giants have this issue?
OK, when the Colts were winning they had Manning who was the highest paid player in the league. Do you know who replaced him at the top, that would be Dwight Freeney. So yes they had that issue. And Robert Mathis certainly isn't cheap with a contract in the $18-$20M range.

In Denver, Champ Bailey was one of the top 25 paid players in the league, Manning and Dumervil were both top 10 (at least for 2012, when I last looked at such numbers). So yes, they have that issue.

The Pats, Saints, and Giants all have very high paid QBs on their rosters. For the Pats add Login Mankins $22M, I'm pretty sure guys like Mayo, Revis, Wilfork and Gronk aren't cheap. For the Saints, Jahri Evans makes good money and lets see what Graham's new contract adds to the cap - it will be huge. In New York, they have Cruz counting over $13M in dead money and that is a bargain compared to William Beatty's $15.5M - try to cut them alone.

So yes, the Lions are in a similar situation to many NFL teams. You have to pay the QB, and you will pay for your other stars - it is the way the system works. Some team have higher pay #2 and #3 guys like the Lions, some teams spread it a little more evenly but pay guys #4-#7 more than Detroit. Some teams are more attractive to players than others who might have to pay a premium (hello Detroit).

The NFL, like virtually any sports league, is a environment that places a premium on collecting talent. It is usually a bad, very bad idea, to get rid of the precious talent that you have. Do you think the Heat win the title after dumping Lebron and Wade to even out their roster with more quality players? Are the Tigers better off spending money on more players rather than having Cabrera and Verlander?
Good arguments, but I'm still not convinced.

Couple more questions for you:
When the aforementioned teams were paying those salaries, were they consistently competing in the playoffs or were they still in the 'building' phase, as the Lions are?

How do you think those organizations would be handling the Suh situation right now? Do you think they would be quiet about him missing time, as the Lions brass is? or would they make it known that everyone is expected to be there?
Pablo wrote:
TheRealWags wrote:
Now, if the Lions want to continue to be the Cleveland of the NFC North or the Jets of the NFC, then they should just keep on with the status quo.
Really, the Browns have what talent?

As for the Jets, they tried a similar approach with Revis and dumped his contract and added a bunch more players as you are suggesting the Lions do. That wasn't sticking with the status quo. How did that work out for a team that was a perennial SB contender with their star CB? I'll tell you, they used to be a top 5-6 defense with him, the last two years you will find them in the 20-25 range and out of the playoffs altogether.
Point being that both of those organizations have historically been run like crap, quite similar to the Lions. If the Lions want to continue down that path, then they should keep on doing what they have for the past 50+ years.

As for the Jets, you're saying that their recent downfall is directly related to not paying Revis? Funny, I thought they had other issues like no QB or WRs....

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April 23rd, 2014, 9:58 am
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Post Re: Suh's absence from voluntary workouts is bad sign for Li
Killwill25 wrote:
I'll say it again, SUH IS THE BEST PLAYER ON THE TEAM
He's better than Calvin? Really? Care to lay out your argument?

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April 23rd, 2014, 9:59 am
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Post Re: Suh's absence from voluntary workouts is bad sign for Li
m2karateman wrote:
Ask yourself this question: if Calvin Johnson hadn't redone his deal and chose to stay away from VOLUNTARY team workouts, what would your stance be? Would you start talking about trading him? Would you look at him in a negative light? Or would you blame the team for not having redone his deal before the workouts occurred?

I don't know what is happening in the contract negotiations. I don't know if Suh is playing hardball, or if the team is trying to keep him on the cheap. Whatever the case, Suh's choice to stay away is pretty common place among NFL players in the middle of contract negotiations. Standard practice for most. Why blast him for it? Why talk about trading him because of it? In the end, it's a business and he had to handle it that way. The team is JUST AS RESPONSIBLE for his being absent as he is. As for the idea that Suh needs to be there because of his captaincy or to show 'younger' players what it takes to win, that's pure garbage. Winning teams have had players sit out during contract negotiations, including team captains. They still win.

I am not a huge fan of Ndamukong Suh. I think he lacks some maturity and isn't a complete team player. But he is a dominant player in the middle, and is consistent in how he performs. How good would the D line be without him? If the Lions trade him, then they are FORCED to keep Nick Fairley, and pay him more than what he could be worth. Remember, the LIONS opted out of paying Fairley to ensure keeping him beyond this coming season. There is no DT available in this draft that will be even close to how good Suh is now.
Understand what you're saying, but I still say if a player is under contract (Suh is), actively campaigned for and was selected Team Captain (Suh did and was), and you have a new regime with new systems, terminology, etc (Lions situation) then that player should be there. I understand the business aspect, however he consistently has tried to portray himself as a team player and team leader, his recent actions show neither. You can negotiate a contract and still fulfill your existing obligations.

I guess is pretty much all boils down to 2 points for me:
1. Suh is a Team Leader, he should act like it (Lead by example)
2. If you truly want to win and it is 'WIN NOW' mode (as both Suh and Lions have repeatedly said), then everyone needs to be there, building the team cohesion.

Ask yourself this: Are the Lions a team that can take any shortcuts to becoming a championship quality team? IMO that answer is a resounding NO.
m2karateman wrote:
Please, keep your heads about this. He's not thumbing his nose at the team or flipping off the fans. He's doing what most other players in his position do in this scenario.

Let's list the Suh incidents (partial):
    IIRC he was the only player to not celebrate with the fans when they went to the playoffs
    Not taking responsibility for 'the stomp'
    'I'm just that much stronger than everyone else' (Really?)
    continual rumors/suggestions that he's not staying in Detroit, including coming from his sister
    Holding a team meeting about keeping composure and playing under control, gets personal foul penalty and fined at game the same week
    Not once taking responsibility for his actions on or off the field
    A couple questionable accidents and responses to them (tried to bribe/force female passenger into lying)

Granted any one or even a couple of these may not mean much, but added together......at some point all these types of things add up and you have to ask yourself if this is the type of person you want on your team and representing your City.

PS: Is the draft here yet?

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April 23rd, 2014, 10:18 am
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Post Re: Suh's absence from voluntary workouts is bad sign for Li
BillySims wrote:
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
BillySims wrote:
And he is likely going to be the best player on someone else's team after next season. Wouldn't you rather get a 1st and 3rd round pick in trade for him instead of a 4th round pick for him as compensation? Because that's what a 3rd round Comp pick is. A 4th rounder. It comes after the 3rd round is completed.

Where do you get the idea that he's likely going to be on someone else's team? Every indication from the team is that they want him here. I'd be shocked if they let him go. Yes he's going to cost a lot, but he's worth it. I can't see the Lions letting him go. I think you're way off in your assessment. In fact, I think they'll get an extension worked out before this season. Either way though, I don't see the Lions letting him go. Good teams are not built by letting the best players leave. It just doesn't happen.


They won't have the choice but to let him go. You can only negotiate a new contract if the player actually negotiates. Have they even actually began negotiations yet? So far, all I have heard about is 1 delay after another on the negotiations. And if we franchise tag him after next season, we will have to pay him 110% of $22Mlion. So, that ain't happening.


I'm not so sure the Lions won't franchise him next season. It would cost them a whole 2M-3M more than this year and with the cap jumping another 10M next season it will probably give them the space and time to trade him. They will only get around 10M back in space next year if he walks, so it may be worth it for them to just franchise him and make a trade. Revis with a bad wheel and no way for the Jets to keep paying him still got a 1st rounder back in return.

As for the negotiations, they have been going on since the owners meetings and the slow pace has probably more to do with the Lions since they said they were in no hurry to negotiate. IMO its the Lions FO that is slow rolling the extension since they have no reason to make more space right now.


April 23rd, 2014, 11:27 am
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Post Re: Suh's absence from voluntary workouts is bad sign for Li
rao wrote:
BillySims wrote:
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
BillySims wrote:
And he is likely going to be the best player on someone else's team after next season. Wouldn't you rather get a 1st and 3rd round pick in trade for him instead of a 4th round pick for him as compensation? Because that's what a 3rd round Comp pick is. A 4th rounder. It comes after the 3rd round is completed.

Where do you get the idea that he's likely going to be on someone else's team? Every indication from the team is that they want him here. I'd be shocked if they let him go. Yes he's going to cost a lot, but he's worth it. I can't see the Lions letting him go. I think you're way off in your assessment. In fact, I think they'll get an extension worked out before this season. Either way though, I don't see the Lions letting him go. Good teams are not built by letting the best players leave. It just doesn't happen.


They won't have the choice but to let him go. You can only negotiate a new contract if the player actually negotiates. Have they even actually began negotiations yet? So far, all I have heard about is 1 delay after another on the negotiations. And if we franchise tag him after next season, we will have to pay him 110% of $22Mlion. So, that ain't happening.


I'm not so sure the Lions won't franchise him next season. It would cost them a whole 2M-3M more than this year and with the cap jumping another 10M next season it will probably give them the space and time to trade him. They will only get around 10M back in space next year if he walks, so it may be worth it for them to just franchise him and make a trade. Revis with a bad wheel and no way for the Jets to keep paying him still got a 1st rounder back in return.

As for the negotiations, they have been going on since the owners meetings and the slow pace has probably more to do with the Lions since they said they were in no hurry to negotiate. IMO its the Lions FO that is slow rolling the extension since they have no reason to make more space right now.


WRONGO!!!! Those owners meetings negotiations that were supposed to happen, got canceled. And there has been no word that they have since begun.


April 23rd, 2014, 11:40 am
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Post Re: Suh's absence from voluntary workouts is bad sign for Li
BillySims wrote:
rao wrote:
BillySims wrote:
Touchdown Jesus wrote:
BillySims wrote:
And he is likely going to be the best player on someone else's team after next season. Wouldn't you rather get a 1st and 3rd round pick in trade for him instead of a 4th round pick for him as compensation? Because that's what a 3rd round Comp pick is. A 4th rounder. It comes after the 3rd round is completed.

Where do you get the idea that he's likely going to be on someone else's team? Every indication from the team is that they want him here. I'd be shocked if they let him go. Yes he's going to cost a lot, but he's worth it. I can't see the Lions letting him go. I think you're way off in your assessment. In fact, I think they'll get an extension worked out before this season. Either way though, I don't see the Lions letting him go. Good teams are not built by letting the best players leave. It just doesn't happen.


They won't have the choice but to let him go. You can only negotiate a new contract if the player actually negotiates. Have they even actually began negotiations yet? So far, all I have heard about is 1 delay after another on the negotiations. And if we franchise tag him after next season, we will have to pay him 110% of $22Mlion. So, that ain't happening.


I'm not so sure the Lions won't franchise him next season. It would cost them a whole 2M-3M more than this year and with the cap jumping another 10M next season it will probably give them the space and time to trade him. They will only get around 10M back in space next year if he walks, so it may be worth it for them to just franchise him and make a trade. Revis with a bad wheel and no way for the Jets to keep paying him still got a 1st rounder back in return.

As for the negotiations, they have been going on since the owners meetings and the slow pace has probably more to do with the Lions since they said they were in no hurry to negotiate. IMO its the Lions FO that is slow rolling the extension since they have no reason to make more space right now.


WRONGO!!!! Those owners meetings negotiations that were supposed to happen, got canceled. And there has been no word that they have since begun.


The Lions themselves said they were in contact with his agent by phone and that the negotiations have been ongoing, but that they were in no hurry. The only thing that got canceled was the face to face meeting which is meaningless anyways unless there was an actual offer being put on the table. It was also Lewand that said he canceled the meeting not Suh or his agent.


April 23rd, 2014, 11:54 am
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Post Re: Suh's absence from voluntary workouts is bad sign for Li
BillySims wrote:
WRONGO!!!! Those owners meetings negotiations that were supposed to happen, got canceled. And there has been no word that they have since begun.

How about we look at the facts of what actually happened. Regarding these negotiations that were supposed to happen, if you look back it was the Lions who canceled the talks, not Suh. I just went back and looked over the stories about it. First, Lewand said he "expects to" meet with Suh's agent at the owners meetings. Quotes to that effect are here:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10632644/detroit-lions-ndamukong-suh-agent-expected-meet-next-week.

Then Lewand said that he called Suh's agent and recommended they not meet at the meetings. He was quoted as saying “I actually reached out to Jimmy (Sexton) on Sunday and said this is not the most conducive place to be productive, and we both agreed on that,” here: http://www.freep.com/article/20140325/SPORTS01/303250079/ndamukong-suh-contract-detroit-lions.

Since then, Lewand has said that conversations have been “more on the civil and productive side of the spectrum” than most negotiations he’s been a part of. Stories saying that here: http://www.freep.com/article/20140414/SPORTS01/304140155/detroit-lions-ndamukong-suh-contract-no-update, and here: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140414/SPORTS0101/304140110.

Really guys, it's not hard to do a quick search and see if there have been any comments. It took me longer to write this message than it did to find the articles.

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April 23rd, 2014, 12:02 pm
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Post Re: Suh's absence from voluntary workouts is bad sign for Li
TheRealWags wrote:
    IIRC he was the only player to not celebrate with the fans when they went to the playoffs
    Not taking responsibility for 'the stomp'
    'I'm just that much stronger than everyone else' (Really?)
    continual rumors/suggestions that he's not staying in Detroit, including coming from his sister
    Holding a team meeting about keeping composure and playing under control, gets personal foul penalty and fined at game the same week
    Not once taking responsibility for his actions on or off the field
    A couple questionable accidents and responses to them (tried to bribe/force female passenger into lying)


First one....big deal. Each player can choose what they want to do.
Second one....I've watched it a bunch of times, and it definitely looks to me like he was just trying to get the player to let go of his foot. Why own up to a 'stomp' that may not have been the case?
OK, he holds a meeting and gets a personal foul and fine. As if the league hasn't put a target on his back and fined him for ridiculous reasons. Stop already.
And lastly, I accept that some of his actions off the field have been bad. However, I also look at the numerous charitable works he's done as well. Included in all that is stuff he's done here in Detroit. Who cares if he lives here?

TheRealWags wrote:
Granted any one or even a couple of these may not mean much, but added together......at some point all these types of things add up and you have to ask yourself if this is the type of person you want on your team and representing your City.

PS: Is the draft here yet?


OK, so if you don't want him on your team, why are you complaining that he's not with the team at workouts? Pick a path.

He's defensive tackle. It's not like he's a quarterback, or a receiver who need to learn a tremendous amount of plays or details. He is highly intelligent and capable of learning. These few days won't make that big a difference. And in the end, his not being there is just as much the fault of Lions management as anything else. You just need to accept that. It's a two way street.

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April 23rd, 2014, 4:02 pm
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Post Re: Suh's absence from voluntary workouts is bad sign for Li
VOLUNTARY - done, given, or acting of one's own free will.

The CBA is explicit in what is voluntary and what is mandatory and the ones in this thread acting like these workouts are mandatory and he's missing them makes him not a team player have to just ask themselves... If your job held voluntary meetings to help new hires for no extra pay on your days off, would you show to every single one to make it a better workplace?


April 23rd, 2014, 4:13 pm
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Post Re: Suh's absence from voluntary workouts is bad sign for Li
At least there's some good news. Broyles is practicing


April 23rd, 2014, 6:16 pm
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Post Re: Suh's absence from voluntary workouts is bad sign for Li
The people that want Suh gone have a very short memory.

Remeber what happened when the Lions shipped off Shaun Rogers? How'd that work out?


April 23rd, 2014, 10:10 pm
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