View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently November 24th, 2014, 7:00 pm



Reply to topic  [ 96 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 Suh's contract status 
Author Message
NFL Veteran

Joined: November 28th, 2007, 12:50 pm
Posts: 1400
Location: Newport Beach, Ca
Post Re: Suh's contract status
m2karateman wrote:
rao wrote:
Well Ngata got 12.2M/yr in 2011 and Atkins got 11M/yr last year on his extension, so Suh is probably looking for 12.5M-13M if not a little more since the cap is looking to grow by such a large amount in the next few years. If I'm the Lions I wouldn't go more than 12.5M unless I'm sure I can just let Fairley walk and fine bringing in draft picks and journeymen to play next to Suh.


Well, I look at it this way. The Lions refused to exercise the option for Fairley for next year, at $5.5M for 2015, I believe was the figure. If Suh is looking for a $12.5M per year contract, that's a $7M difference between him and Fairley. So, is Suh REALLY worth more than $7M more than Fairley? Abso-freakin'-lutely NOT!

I could see a contract for around 8 or 9 million per season on average. But 12 to 13 million per season? No way. He's not even close to being THAT good. But I am not going to fault him for negotiating how he is. And the fact is, the Lions could be the ones delaying the process, not Suh. The delay allows the Lions to take a closer look at DTs in the draft, and consider the option recently brought up about trading Suh. Those of you automatically blaming Suh for this are being pretty short sighted.


I think Suh could be a $12.5M playmaker if he got used better. Suh should be playing next to a NT that can eat up space. He needs to be setup like Geno Atkins with the Bengals, having a guy like Domata Peko gives him the freedom to really make plays. The last few years has always been Suh trying to find some balance between attacking and defending the run and it made him a better run defender while making him less disruptive on the non obvious passing downs. The Fairley/Suh pairing is really nice on 3rd and longs, but really leaves a bit to be desired on running downs outside of the redzone. IMO Fairley is too similar to Suh and it takes away from Suh's ability to make plays and show his full value. I understand why the Lions used the 2 together since they were running the wide 9 as a base defense and under that scheme I agree with it, but the scheme wasn't great and I think those two are going to hinder each other in a new scheme.


April 29th, 2014, 9:21 am
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pm
Posts: 9947
Location: Where ever I'm at now
Post Re: Suh's contract status
rao wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
rao wrote:
Well Ngata got 12.2M/yr in 2011 and Atkins got 11M/yr last year on his extension, so Suh is probably looking for 12.5M-13M if not a little more since the cap is looking to grow by such a large amount in the next few years. If I'm the Lions I wouldn't go more than 12.5M unless I'm sure I can just let Fairley walk and fine bringing in draft picks and journeymen to play next to Suh.


Well, I look at it this way. The Lions refused to exercise the option for Fairley for next year, at $5.5M for 2015, I believe was the figure. If Suh is looking for a $12.5M per year contract, that's a $7M difference between him and Fairley. So, is Suh REALLY worth more than $7M more than Fairley? Abso-freakin'-lutely NOT!

I could see a contract for around 8 or 9 million per season on average. But 12 to 13 million per season? No way. He's not even close to being THAT good. But I am not going to fault him for negotiating how he is. And the fact is, the Lions could be the ones delaying the process, not Suh. The delay allows the Lions to take a closer look at DTs in the draft, and consider the option recently brought up about trading Suh. Those of you automatically blaming Suh for this are being pretty short sighted.


I think Suh could be a $12.5M playmaker if he got used better. Suh should be playing next to a NT that can eat up space. He needs to be setup like Geno Atkins with the Bengals, having a guy like Domata Peko gives him the freedom to really make plays. The last few years has always been Suh trying to find some balance between attacking and defending the run and it made him a better run defender while making him less disruptive on the non obvious passing downs. The Fairley/Suh pairing is really nice on 3rd and longs, but really leaves a bit to be desired on running downs outside of the redzone. IMO Fairley is too similar to Suh and it takes away from Suh's ability to make plays and show his full value. I understand why the Lions used the 2 together since they were running the wide 9 as a base defense and under that scheme I agree with it, but the scheme wasn't great and I think those two are going to hinder each other in a new scheme.


If Suh and Fairley are so similar, then why should the Lions pay Suh so much more than Fairley? Save the money, trade Suh and find that NT type you speak of at a much lower rate.

_________________
I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.


April 29th, 2014, 2:22 pm
Profile
NFL Veteran

Joined: November 28th, 2007, 12:50 pm
Posts: 1400
Location: Newport Beach, Ca
Post Re: Suh's contract status
m2karateman wrote:
rao wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
rao wrote:
Well Ngata got 12.2M/yr in 2011 and Atkins got 11M/yr last year on his extension, so Suh is probably looking for 12.5M-13M if not a little more since the cap is looking to grow by such a large amount in the next few years. If I'm the Lions I wouldn't go more than 12.5M unless I'm sure I can just let Fairley walk and fine bringing in draft picks and journeymen to play next to Suh.


Well, I look at it this way. The Lions refused to exercise the option for Fairley for next year, at $5.5M for 2015, I believe was the figure. If Suh is looking for a $12.5M per year contract, that's a $7M difference between him and Fairley. So, is Suh REALLY worth more than $7M more than Fairley? Abso-freakin'-lutely NOT!

I could see a contract for around 8 or 9 million per season on average. But 12 to 13 million per season? No way. He's not even close to being THAT good. But I am not going to fault him for negotiating how he is. And the fact is, the Lions could be the ones delaying the process, not Suh. The delay allows the Lions to take a closer look at DTs in the draft, and consider the option recently brought up about trading Suh. Those of you automatically blaming Suh for this are being pretty short sighted.


I think Suh could be a $12.5M playmaker if he got used better. Suh should be playing next to a NT that can eat up space. He needs to be setup like Geno Atkins with the Bengals, having a guy like Domata Peko gives him the freedom to really make plays. The last few years has always been Suh trying to find some balance between attacking and defending the run and it made him a better run defender while making him less disruptive on the non obvious passing downs. The Fairley/Suh pairing is really nice on 3rd and longs, but really leaves a bit to be desired on running downs outside of the redzone. IMO Fairley is too similar to Suh and it takes away from Suh's ability to make plays and show his full value. I understand why the Lions used the 2 together since they were running the wide 9 as a base defense and under that scheme I agree with it, but the scheme wasn't great and I think those two are going to hinder each other in a new scheme.


If Suh and Fairley are so similar, then why should the Lions pay Suh so much more than Fairley? Save the money, trade Suh and find that NT type you speak of at a much lower rate.


Similar doesn't mean equal in talent or ability. They are both penetrating DTs, so they play in a similar manner, but Suh is leaps ahead of Fairley as a player. Fairley also phones it in a lot and is not in top level shape which are not things you would ever have to worry about Suh doing. Fairley shows very little motivation and that's not a player you let yourself depend on to replace your elite player.


April 29th, 2014, 4:22 pm
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: January 26th, 2005, 9:34 pm
Posts: 10327
Location: Sycamore, IL
Post Re: Suh's contract status
I've always defended suh, but for the benefit of the team, they need to trade him. I'd rather have a second round WR this year than tie up 1/6th of the cap in a DT. It's nothing against suh, but unless that player is Peyton manning and is that one piece of the puzzle to get you into that Super Bowl, no thanks. Suh isn't that piece. His cap status is preventing this team from becoming better.

People talking about a first rounder are smoking the good stuff, because I would be shocked to see a 2nd rounder.

_________________
_____
I have no faith this team will win a game the rest of the year. The kitties finish at 7-9 and Miss the playoffs as GB wins out and takes it from the kitties.
Image


April 29th, 2014, 10:28 pm
Profile
Heisman Winner
User avatar

Joined: December 18th, 2008, 9:18 am
Posts: 778
Location: Where I lay my head is home
Post Re: Suh's contract status
I think packaging a 2nd rounder and Suh might yield us a 3rd/4th rounder and a mid-first round pick from a team like Titans or Ravens, which can be used to pick Gilbert/Dennard/Fuller/Haha/Pryor (whoever is available), and use our 10th overall pick to get Aaron Donald.

Suh might be a great individual player, but his cap weight might be too much come next year (if he signs a deal) if not, like someone said, he might be gone anyway. If we trade him now like I mentioned above, we can replace him with Donald, who in my opinion will be a pro-bowler one day, and still get the help we need in the secondary with the trade-acquired pick.


April 30th, 2014, 3:35 am
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pm
Posts: 9947
Location: Where ever I'm at now
Post Re: Suh's contract status
conversion02 wrote:
I've always defended suh, but for the benefit of the team, they need to trade him. I'd rather have a second round WR this year than tie up 1/6th of the cap in a DT. It's nothing against suh, but unless that player is Peyton manning and is that one piece of the puzzle to get you into that Super Bowl, no thanks. Suh isn't that piece. His cap status is preventing this team from becoming better.

People talking about a first rounder are smoking the good stuff, because I would be shocked to see a 2nd rounder.


Right on the money. I don't care who it is, when you are trading a player in the last year of a contract, where they typically have an outrageous salary, that deal won't involve a first round pick coming from the other team. In order to get a first round pick, the Lions would have to ink Suh to a new deal which is considered reasonable to other teams. That doesn't seem like it's going to happen any time soon. And even then, based on his past I would be shocked if another team ponied up a first rounder for him. I think the Lions would be LUCKY to have someone dangle a second round pick as compensation for Suh. I'd be happy with a third round pick to get his $22M off the books.

_________________
I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.


April 30th, 2014, 10:20 am
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pm
Posts: 9947
Location: Where ever I'm at now
Post Re: Suh's contract status
rao wrote:
Similar doesn't mean equal in talent or ability. They are both penetrating DTs, so they play in a similar manner, but Suh is leaps ahead of Fairley as a player. Fairley also phones it in a lot and is not in top level shape which are not things you would ever have to worry about Suh doing. Fairley shows very little motivation and that's not a player you let yourself depend on to replace your elite player.


Simple question: Is Suh worth $7M per season more than Fairley?

_________________
I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.


April 30th, 2014, 10:22 am
Profile
Heisman Winner
User avatar

Joined: December 18th, 2008, 9:18 am
Posts: 778
Location: Where I lay my head is home
Post Re: Suh's contract status
m2karateman wrote:
conversion02 wrote:
I've always defended suh, but for the benefit of the team, they need to trade him. I'd rather have a second round WR this year than tie up 1/6th of the cap in a DT. It's nothing against suh, but unless that player is Peyton manning and is that one piece of the puzzle to get you into that Super Bowl, no thanks. Suh isn't that piece. His cap status is preventing this team from becoming better.

People talking about a first rounder are smoking the good stuff, because I would be shocked to see a 2nd rounder.


Right on the money. I don't care who it is, when you are trading a player in the last year of a contract, where they typically have an outrageous salary, that deal won't involve a first round pick coming from the other team. In order to get a first round pick, the Lions would have to ink Suh to a new deal which is considered reasonable to other teams. That doesn't seem like it's going to happen any time soon. And even then, based on his past I would be shocked if another team ponied up a first rounder for him. I think the Lions would be LUCKY to have someone dangle a second round pick as compensation for Suh. I'd be happy with a third round pick to get his $22M off the books.


The ONLY scenario to trade a player in the last year of his contract is if the other team is one DT away from Superbowl. Off the top of my head, I can only think of Ravens, Tintans and Redskins who might be interested but as I said in my last comment, if we package Suh with our second round pick, we might end up with a first rounder and maybe a 3rd/4th round pick.


April 30th, 2014, 11:01 am
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 am
Posts: 9519
Location: Dallas
Post Re: Suh's contract status
m2karateman wrote:
rao wrote:
Similar doesn't mean equal in talent or ability. They are both penetrating DTs, so they play in a similar manner, but Suh is leaps ahead of Fairley as a player. Fairley also phones it in a lot and is not in top level shape which are not things you would ever have to worry about Suh doing. Fairley shows very little motivation and that's not a player you let yourself depend on to replace your elite player.


Simple question: Is Suh worth $7M per season more than Fairley?


That isn't a simple question. You have two different eras of rookie contracts involved and don't know what Fairley's next contract will look like.

Is Chris Houston worth 7X what Slay is? How did Reggie Bush's contract stack up to Bell's last year? Waddle started and will make less than $500K in salary and all bonuses while Corey Hilliard will make over $1.6M. Fauria also will make less than $500K, should we dump Pett who is making so much more?

Comparing two different football players compensation isn't the same as two folks in a regular office job.

Let me ask some other questions as to their values... How much more money per year does Suh generate from jersey sales alone than Fairley? How much more attention do the Lions get from having Suh dealing with the media? How often have you heard Fairley talking with national media? What sort of identity does Fairley give the Lions? Now, does Suh give the Lions an identity on defense? How much effectiveness does Fairly lose with Suh not grabbing all the attention next to him? How much did Ziggy benefit by Suh taking him under his wing? Would you want Fairley taking anybody under his wing? I could keep going, but you get the point.

Again, the question isn't simple at all.

_________________
Image
LB Tweet


April 30th, 2014, 11:12 am
Profile WWW
NFL Veteran

Joined: November 28th, 2007, 12:50 pm
Posts: 1400
Location: Newport Beach, Ca
Post Re: Suh's contract status
m2karateman wrote:
rao wrote:
Similar doesn't mean equal in talent or ability. They are both penetrating DTs, so they play in a similar manner, but Suh is leaps ahead of Fairley as a player. Fairley also phones it in a lot and is not in top level shape which are not things you would ever have to worry about Suh doing. Fairley shows very little motivation and that's not a player you let yourself depend on to replace your elite player.


Simple question: Is Suh worth $7M per season more than Fairley?


Yes, because I don't care what his average salary is.


April 30th, 2014, 1:05 pm
Profile
RIP Killer
User avatar

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pm
Posts: 9947
Location: Where ever I'm at now
Post Re: Suh's contract status
Pablo wrote:
m2karateman wrote:
rao wrote:
Similar doesn't mean equal in talent or ability. They are both penetrating DTs, so they play in a similar manner, but Suh is leaps ahead of Fairley as a player. Fairley also phones it in a lot and is not in top level shape which are not things you would ever have to worry about Suh doing. Fairley shows very little motivation and that's not a player you let yourself depend on to replace your elite player.


Simple question: Is Suh worth $7M per season more than Fairley?


That isn't a simple question. You have two different eras of rookie contracts involved and don't know what Fairley's next contract will look like.

Is Chris Houston worth 7X what Slay is? How did Reggie Bush's contract stack up to Bell's last year? Waddle started and will make less than $500K in salary and all bonuses while Corey Hilliard will make over $1.6M. Fauria also will make less than $500K, should we dump Pett who is making so much more?

Comparing two different football players compensation isn't the same as two folks in a regular office job.

Let me ask some other questions as to their values... How much more money per year does Suh generate from jersey sales alone than Fairley? How much more attention do the Lions get from having Suh dealing with the media? How often have you heard Fairley talking with national media? What sort of identity does Fairley give the Lions? Now, does Suh give the Lions an identity on defense? How much effectiveness does Fairly lose with Suh not grabbing all the attention next to him? How much did Ziggy benefit by Suh taking him under his wing? Would you want Fairley taking anybody under his wing? I could keep going, but you get the point.

Again, the question isn't simple at all.


It is simple Pablo, and I'll tell you why. The Lions have chosen to tell the world that Nick Fairley is not worth $5.5M per season, or at least for A season, since they opted out of the fifth year at that salary. If the Lions then choose to sign Suh to a deal averaging $12.5M per season, they are stating publicly Suh is worth that much more than Fairley.

As for all the other questions you propose, I could care less about identity or media crap. All that counts is what happens on the field. As for Suh's impact and what other players gain from his presence, that is all factored into the question 'Is Suh worth $7M more per season than Fairley?' All those questions should be figured in. If the answer is yes, then pay him. If the answer is no, then put a cap on what you will pay him and stand strong in the negotiations. If he can get $12M or $13M per season elsewhere, good luck to him.

_________________
I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.


May 5th, 2014, 11:11 am
Profile
5th Round Pick - Traded

Joined: October 24th, 2005, 6:23 am
Posts: 1032
Post Re: Suh's contract status
You have to be careful when comparing players. According to Warren Sapp Suh has not progressed a bit since entering the league. According to some evaluators Fairley is the better player, but only when he choses to put out the effort.

You have to look at what has been asked of Suh and how he has responded. While he helps the defensive line, he also hurts the team with his penalties and the image the franchise gets because of them. Now, does he do for the defense what CJ does for the offense? I don't think so. Personally, I'm not in that big of a rush to get him signed. The Lions claim they will not trade him and I believe them so long as no one is willing to make a Hershel Walker type of deal. His cap hit would be too great otherwise. The risk in not getting him signed to an extension right away is that he may take his cleats to go somewhere else. So what? He may have already decided to do just that!

Let's not forget that Suh is also taking a risk by not signing an extension sooner rather than later. If he has a down year or gets hurt it will negatively impact his ability to negotiate a big free agent deal. The pressure will grow on both sides the closer we get to training camp. I just don't want to see the Lions do another Stafford like deal. I can see top five money, but not top money at this time. After all, I may want to resign Fairley if he produces this year.


May 6th, 2014, 7:57 pm
Profile
NFL Veteran

Joined: November 28th, 2007, 12:50 pm
Posts: 1400
Location: Newport Beach, Ca
Post Re: Suh's contract status
Jafo wrote:
You have to be careful when comparing players. According to Warren Sapp Suh has not progressed a bit since entering the league. According to some evaluators Fairley is the better player, but only when he choses to put out the effort.

You have to look at what has been asked of Suh and how he has responded. While he helps the defensive line, he also hurts the team with his penalties and the image the franchise gets because of them. Now, does he do for the defense what CJ does for the offense? I don't think so. Personally, I'm not in that big of a rush to get him signed. The Lions claim they will not trade him and I believe them so long as no one is willing to make a Hershel Walker type of deal. His cap hit would be too great otherwise. The risk in not getting him signed to an extension right away is that he may take his cleats to go somewhere else. So what? He may have already decided to do just that!

Let's not forget that Suh is also taking a risk by not signing an extension sooner rather than later. If he has a down year or gets hurt it will negatively impact his ability to negotiate a big free agent deal. The pressure will grow on both sides the closer we get to training camp. I just don't want to see the Lions do another Stafford like deal. I can see top five money, but not top money at this time. After all, I may want to resign Fairley if he produces this year.


Fairley has led the team in penalties the last 2 seasons while missing 4 games in that time. He is not a better player than Suh and any evaluator saying that is either misinformed or incompetent. Even the stats show Suh has a bigger impact on the game.


May 6th, 2014, 11:10 pm
Profile
5th Round Pick - Traded

Joined: October 24th, 2005, 6:23 am
Posts: 1032
Post Re: Suh's contract status
I think I also stated that they said it is 'when he wants to'. meaning Fairley is like Shaun Rogers; awesome when willing to do more than just get by but otherwise overpaid and under producing. This is why Mayhew didn't pick up Fairley's option. Mayhew alleges he wants to goad Fairley into realizing what he needs to do. Personally, I doubt it will cause any kind of permanent attitude change, but it just ight produce the kind of production in the pros Fairley managed his last year in college. If Suh remains unsigned through a 'resurgent' year for Fairley it might provide some leverage.

Of course, it could also fool Mayhew into believing he doesn't need to pay nearly what Suh will settle for.

The whole thing is, Suh owns the ball and the whistle and if he decides he doesn't want to play here, for whatever reason, he is going to leave. Yeah, they kept a number of coaches, but that doesn't change the fact that the top three coaches are different and the team will be different. Suh is in a position to chose the situation he works in so he is probably waiting to see how he feels about the new guys. Money is always a major factor, but face it, he is going to get a boat load from someone whether here or elsewhere.

I think all of these guys are overpaid, but it is what the market will bear and more power to those who can negotiate their best payday. For this reason I don't really care what Suh gets for a contract. However, as a fan of the team, I don't want to see the Lions screw themselves on the salary cap Mayhew has done little to give me any such confidence.


May 9th, 2014, 7:57 am
Profile
ST Coordinator – Danny Crossman

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pm
Posts: 3785
Location: WSU
Post Re: Suh's contract status
Rogers at his best IMO was better than both of them and didnt take himself out of plays like Suh does. Fairley has great instincts and technique but not the power that Rogers had. Even on the supposed "taking plays off," Rogers stood his ground. He was rarely blocked out of a play. Suh takes himself out once a series - maybe it was Schwartz scheme but the other guys werent doing it was frequently as Suh.


May 9th, 2014, 9:37 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 96 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], sweetd20 and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware.