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 Gun Control 
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Post Re: Gun Control
Blueskies wrote:
Can you provide an example of a government "turning on its people"?

I don't believe it's ever happened. Ever.

Sure, there've been a handful of revolutions throughout time (Russian revolution, French revolution, etc) but those were arguably more along the lines of civil war, and generally they were started by the people -- not the government.

If the government is actively oppressing you, you have to be in the minority, which means it's not really the government, but most of society against you. And your AK-47 isn't going to save you from a drone strike. Sorry.


Turkey, 1915-17. Muslim government banned possession of firearms then slaughtered 1.5 million Armenians.
Russia - 1929-1945. Ban on possession and then elimination of political opponents numbering in at 20 million.
Germany - 1933-1945. Banned Jews from possession and then rounded them up and killed 6 million.
China (nationalist)- 1927-1949 banned possession then killed 10 million political opponents.
China (communist) 1949-1976 kept ban, killed 25 million political opponents.
Guatemala - 1960-1981 - banned possession then killed Mayans, Indians and political opponents numbering at 200,000.

More of the same in Uganda (300,000), Cambodia (2 million) and Rwanda (800,000).

Every single one a case of the government ramping up gun restrictions to outright ban on possession before turning on its citizens.


May 20th, 2016, 12:51 pm
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Post Re: Gun Control
That's generally bogus

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... nazi-guns/
https://maoistrebelnews.com/2011/10/07/ ... ownership/

I did quite a bit of reading about the Armenian genocide. I never once found any source talking about gun control.


May 20th, 2016, 12:58 pm
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Post Re: Gun Control
I specifically said Jews were banned, which that article doesn't refute. They refuted Carson saying all germans.

And it still doesn't change the governments turning on its citizens, which you said never.


May 20th, 2016, 1:09 pm
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Post Re: Gun Control
A while back I read than a much larger % of people in Canada own guns than here in the U.S. If having more guns is what is causing our murder rate to be so high, why does Canada STILL have one of the lowest murder per capita rates in the world?

It's not the tool used....it's the people using the tools.

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May 20th, 2016, 1:13 pm
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Post Re: Gun Control
Blueskies wrote:
That's generally bogus

I did quite a bit of reading about the Armenian genocide. I never once found any source talking about gun control.


Since I didn't reference this above, it was the 1903 law that banned the manufacturing of gunpowder and the importing of it as well as the banning of all firearms. Most in academia leave that aspect out since it doesn't fit the agenda, and the Armenian Genocide is bad enough that leaving that part out doesn't change the result or the fact it is still not considered a genocide by too many.


May 20th, 2016, 1:38 pm
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Post Re: Gun Control
njroar wrote:
kdsberman wrote:
Im late to the thread..

I usually get worked up pretty good when in discussions with people from both sides of the argument. Before I start, I will say I am a gun owner. I own MANY guns. Shotguns, rifles, pistols. I carry a gun every day every place i go. Except for pistol free zones (church, hospitals, schools..etc) Which gun free zones are stupid anyway, but thats a different subject. I dont carry because I feel Im a cop. I carry because the world sucks these days and you cant predict what might happen. I want the "chance" to protect myself and family.

With that said, I get burned a lot because I will admit I think half of gun owners are the dumbest people out there. The FACT is, if there were no guns, there would be no shootings. Thats a fact. You cant shoot someone without a gun. Yet there are still dumb gun owners that say "thats not true". HOW ISNT IT?!?! The problem is, it is WAY too late to take guns away. There are way too many out there in the hands of the wrong people. You really think a bad guy is gonna give his gun up? C'mon, man! Lets also get this out of the way: A gun was designed to KILL. Not shoot skeet. Not target practice. KILL.

I understand about the 2nd Amendment. But one has to remember too that in 1776, there were no such thing as AR's with 30-round magazines. They had a long gun that shot a ball of lead with little accuracy. Reloading took a while. Trust me, I shoot muzzleloaders. Same concept. Theres no mass shootings with the guns they used. They also didnt have pistols that you could push a magazine release button, throw a new loaded mag in and hit a slide release button and continue firing. So yeah, im with the 2A group, but lets be realistic.

Everyone has an opinion on what they should do about this matter. But what irritates me is when someone says "Well if you take away guns, then you might as well take away cars because cars cause fatal accidents." OR. "Take away butter knives because I can stab someone to death with one" Or anything similar. Those are the stupidest arguments made by gun owners. A car is not designed to kill. Neither is a butter knife. A gun was designed to kill. Heck, I could kill someone with the laptop im typing on right now. Might as well take it away, then Ill have to use my iPhone and type this with that. Wait...I could kill someone with that too. Like i said, stupid argument.

What I also cant stand is gun owners, mostly guys with CPL's, who think because they are licensed to carry a gun now that they are the police. They also are the guys that think that if someone does something they cant shoot them. For example, "if he comes on my property, ill shoot him". Nope you wont. Nor can you. Yet these guys think they can. They're arrogant. They think because they are licensed to carry that you better not f### with them. That they all of a sudden have more reason to legally kill someone. They fail to understand (and they should have learned this in their class) that you can use "deadly force" if you feel you are in immediate danger of your life. If someone breaks in your house and you walk out and shoot them, YOU are going to jail. That person could have been some punk kid breaking in to steal an Xbox. Now you just shot and killed him. He wasnt there to kill you or your family. Now, if that same punk kid walked in, had your Xbox in one hand, and pointed a gun at you...THATS a different story. And a lot of these guys WITH a CPL fail to get this. Even guys that dont have one and just keep a shotgun at the edge of their room.

Anyway, getting a bit off track.

Whats crazy is here in Michigan you can go to a gun shop and come home with a pistol within 45 min. Less than that probably. Actually, after Sandy Hook (pretty sure that was the event), getting a pistol was made EASIER. Before you had to go to police dep. and get a purchase permit, which was good for x-amount of days, go to shop get the gun and return permit and paperwork within 10 days. NOW, you can just go to shop, get the gun, and take pistol purchase permit to police department within 10 days. Simple as that. As long as you're clean, you get a gun. In my opinion, there has to be a better system than that. I just dont know what that system needs to be. For example, when I was buying a pistol about 3 years ago, the guy next to me you could just tell he was up to no good. Cant explain with detail, but you just knew. The guy asked what he wanted the gun for. He hesitated, then said "um...target practice". He walked out with a gun that day. That easy.

Ill throw this in too. In Michigan, if you get pulled over for drunk driving, you can go the next day and buy a pistol. (pretty sure on that). However, if you have a CPL, that license gets suspended because that means your judgement is not good enough to safely carry a gun. I know a guy that him and his buddy took a selfy of them sitting on a girl they knews car hood bonging a beer. She got mad and claimed they scratched her car. She took them to court. Long story short, he lost his CPL for 5 years. In their eyes, his judgement isnt good enough to safely carry a weapon. That does not prevent him from being able to go do a mass shooting though. So they're strict when you have a CPL, however you can do just about anything and still buy a pistol.

Again, I think there has to be a better system to OBTAIN a gun, because you sure as hell aint taking guns away and making that the solution. Too late for that.

What I cant stand is these AR's. I piss a lot of people off by saying this. They are fun to shoot, but what do you need a gun that shoots 30 rounds in less than 10 seconds shooting over 3000FPS and you can reload in about 2-3 seconds and do it all over again. Ok ok, what do I need a pistol for? I get it. But you're talking half the capacity, and less than half the velocity. And i wouldnt be against some law that limits capacity for those neither. Matter of fact, you can bet your life a judge will question why you are carrying a 17 round magazine and a spare.

My opinion? Ban AR's where only Law Enforcement can obtain them. If someone is gonna go shoot up a place, you can bet your life itll be with an AR. Super accurate, super fast, super easy to reload. You can kill a lot in a little time.

This will HELP, but not prevent. Like I said, this is all my opinion. I think its almost too late to do anything except for what we can do going forward whether its stronger background checks, magazine capacity, limiting the type of weapon citizens can buy.


You do realize AR's don't exist right? That's a media term to make semi automatic rifles (which have been around since the 1800's sound scary. It's a cosmetic difference, not a technical one. If you ask the ordinary citizen on the street what an AR is, and they'll say a machine gun because the media smartly plays a video clip of someone shooting an automatic weapon (which are extremely difficult if not impossible in most places to get) when they discuss it. There are plenty of firearms that do the exact same thing but because they aren't black and have cosmetic attachments, they weren't on the 1994 ban list. Black and scary... at the same time they were calling black children super predators... sound familiar? The rhetoric is what makes it seem scary. But the fact is, less than 1% of 1% of all shootings are done with a rifle and a smaller % of those are AR's. Your fear isn't backed up by facts.

And browsing over this page, this quote from Touchdown Jesus:

Quote:
There are literally zero examples of a citizen army being able to stop the might of the US military when it goes in full force.


Sorry you missed history class, but The revolutionary war, Vietnam, Iraq... The full force of any military has issues with insurgency warfare. Always has, always will. Iraq actually resulted in ISIS which is now equipped with US hardware because we left it behind in our rush to leave because we weren't making any progress.

I'm not one expecting the government to turn on us either, but like m2k said, disarmament tactics is always step one. Statistics prove that more guns in an area = less crime which equals fewer shootings, yet they continue to push for more DC, Chicago type bans that result in higher crime, and higher shootings. Logic.


By saying AR, most people know what I'm talking about. At least people who have a little bit of gun knowledge. And it sure is a good thing I don't care what u say. Do you own guns NJ? How long have you been shooting? How many classes related to firearms have u taken? In other words, what's your experience with firearms? Or do you just base your opinion on the news and Internet statistics??


May 20th, 2016, 2:24 pm
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Post Re: Gun Control
I've got a bunch. Besides military training, I worked and volunteered at a local gun shop in their training division. So everything from the basic firearms classes to tactical strategies with the local police departments. I debating getting NRA certified a few times over the years, but due to the lack of NRA support in NJ on the legal front, I wasn't giving them any more dues.

I did skeet shooting and hunting as a teen/early 20's, military until medical discharge in 95, and have owned multiple firearms for years even under our stringent laws. And when the state police call the gun shop multiple times a day, every day for clarification on specific aspects of the laws, you know the laws are too obtuse.

So TLDR; No, I don't only speak from statistics and news reports :)


May 20th, 2016, 2:55 pm
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Post Re: Gun Control
njroar wrote:
I've got a bunch. Besides military training, I worked and volunteered at a local gun shop in their training division. So everything from the basic firearms classes to tactical strategies with the local police departments. I debating getting NRA certified a few times over the years, but due to the lack of NRA support in NJ on the legal front, I wasn't giving them any more dues.

I did skeet shooting and hunting as a teen/early 20's, military until medical discharge in 95, and have owned multiple firearms for years even under our stringent laws. And when the state police call the gun shop multiple times a day, every day for clarification on specific aspects of the laws, you know the laws are too obtuse.

So TLDR; No, I don't only speak from statistics and news reports :)


So with your apparent experience with guns, you should know when someone goes to a gun store and says they are looking for an AR, they should know they are NOT looking for an automatic rifle. When someone goes to the range and says they brought their AR, you should know they dont mean AUTOMATIC RIFLE. Therefore, your unnecessary comment is just that, unnecessary. Maybe its different in NJ. But here in Michigan, an ACTUAL automatic rifle is not referred to as an AR. Not by the media, not by anyone. Good work with your little facts you posted, but im talking mass shootings. Or at least ones done in the last 10-15 years. AR's is the weapon of choice.

And like i said, its MY opinion. Bash it all you want. I dont give it a darn. Without reading this whole thread, what is YOUR solution since you apparently think you know it all.


May 20th, 2016, 3:02 pm
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Post Re: Gun Control
kdsberman wrote:
njroar wrote:
I've got a bunch. Besides military training, I worked and volunteered at a local gun shop in their training division. So everything from the basic firearms classes to tactical strategies with the local police departments. I debating getting NRA certified a few times over the years, but due to the lack of NRA support in NJ on the legal front, I wasn't giving them any more dues.

I did skeet shooting and hunting as a teen/early 20's, military until medical discharge in 95, and have owned multiple firearms for years even under our stringent laws. And when the state police call the gun shop multiple times a day, every day for clarification on specific aspects of the laws, you know the laws are too obtuse.

So TLDR; No, I don't only speak from statistics and news reports :)


So with your apparent experience with guns, you should know when someone goes to a gun store and says they are looking for an AR, they should know they are NOT looking for an automatic rifle. When someone goes to the range and says they brought their AR, you should know they dont mean AUTOMATIC RIFLE. Therefore, your unnecessary comment is just that, unnecessary. Maybe its different in NJ. But here in Michigan, an ACTUAL automatic rifle is not referred to as an AR. Not by the media, not by anyone. Good work with your little facts you posted, but im talking mass shootings. Or at least ones done in the last 10-15 years. AR's is the weapon of choice.

And like i said, its MY opinion. Bash it all you want. I dont give it a darn. Without reading this whole thread, what is YOUR solution since you apparently think you know it all.


Columbine was two disturbed kids off their meds with parents not around. They didn't purchase the weapons, they were purchases by a female friend and they made the pipe bombs from recipes off the internet. The only time they weren't inside shooting was when they were engaged with the one armed security guard who hadn't passed his gun range test in 20+ years and wasn't wearing his prescription glasses so he couldn't hit the them. The common thread in every school shooting has been lack of security. The police arrived but didn't enter the building for 2+ hours, letting them continue their killing spree. They had searched one of the shooters house a year earlier for information posted on his website, but when the media started pressing for what happened with that investigation, all his files went missing.

VA Tech was negligence on VA Tech's part. The shooter was mentally ill and the school psychiatrists knew he was a threat. Instead of reporting it to the proper authorities like they were supposed to, they did nothing. He went to a gun show where he passed a background check and was allowed to purchase a handgun. No armed security, so they had to wait until police responded. They delayed for 5 minutes and as soon as they approached shooter he shot himself. Civil suits from victims targeted school, not shooter's family and won based on negligence.

Aurora was the same. Psychiatrist knows his patient in a threat, doesn't report. Mental health background check doesn't show issues, so he's allowed to purchase everything he wants. Five movie theaters were in that area. Only one didn't allow conceal carry in a conceal carry state, and that's the one he chose.

Connecticut. Parental stupidity. If you have a child with serious mental issues, you don't keep guns in your house and you definitely don't keep them in a glass case. He tried to buy a rifle earlier in the week, but the background check worked and he was denied. No calls to authorities though. He went to the school a day before the shooting and argued with a teacher. No calls to authorities.

Oregon College. Another mentally ill person who's family let guns in the house and his mental health didn't show on background checks even though he graduated from a special needs school that would have all his records available. Only 1 security guard at school and unarmed.

There isn't any one solution. Columbine used multiple types of weapons as well as pipe bombs. Va Tech was a handgun. Aurora was gun free zone. Oregon was 5 handguns and a long rifle that was never shot. All were mental health issues that aren't allowed to report directly to federal background system due to HIPPA laws, but are supposed to report to local police, but all didn't. All had little to no security and police response time allows freedom to kill unabated.

First, we need to get better on mental health. Maybe stop prescribing medications that clearly show on the labels or advertisements that they may cause suicidal or homicidal thoughts in adults and are worse in children. And if there are no alternative meds, proper supervision while on those meds to make sure known side effects are in check. Make an exemption in the HIPPA laws for the federal background check system. Any issues must be reported immediately so the system works properly, otherwise why have a background system in place at all? Every single one was mental health related. It isn't a blip on the radar, it's the main issue.

Second, better security for our children. With the amount of tax dollars that go to education, they can afford to pay the few dollars more it takes to get armed security guard(s). Or utilize the local police and have a resource officer on school grounds. In carry states, teachers that already are trained could carry. Some schools have started this after Newton, but there's been many cases where they had to keep their guns in their cars, a shooting started, they ran to car and came back to stop it, but the delay of having to run to their car first could have cost an extra life.

Third, you can't police parenting before the fact, but if parents, family or friends are purchasing firearms for those unable to get them, they need to be punished harder than you would have the shooters. It's already illegal for straw purchases, but they obviously are ignoring the laws.

All I'm saying is the type of weapon is down on the list of a long list of issues that can and should be addressed. But that's not how politicians attack this. They don't look for solutions, they play on the emotions to follow their agenda. After Newton, where background checks worked, they called for.... gun bans on weapons that weren't used and background checks. And the law they proposed did nothing to improve checking and reporting of mental health issues. They attack the tool instead of how and why the shooter obtained the tool. It's almost like they want to leave the loopholes in place to allow this happen again until they can finally get their agenda passed of banning more weapons. Solutions are available to prevent and minimize this from ever happening again, but because it doesn't eliminate the scary looking weapons, they have no appetite for those solutions. So nothing is done.

And I'm not bashing you. My apologies if you took it that way. The term AR isn't for those of us who own or are in the know. The media uses the term and shows video of automatic weapons together to create a reaction from the uneducated viewers to cause outrage and create an upswell of support for their view that all guns are bad. To me, it's a pet peeve not unlike those that misuse their, there and they're... I wasn't trying to lash out at you specifically :) So I apologize again.


May 21st, 2016, 9:40 am
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Post Re: Gun Control
In Florida, no wait time to purchase an AR-15 like the one used in the Orlando shootings over the weekend. Enough already...

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June 13th, 2016, 2:51 pm
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Post Re: Gun Control
In before "it's because he was a Muslim" posts


June 13th, 2016, 3:42 pm
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Post Re: Gun Control
The gay community should be sickened by the stand the idiots at ACLU have taken !!! Rather than stand against the evil that is islam,or even mention the Muslim lunatic that murdered innocent people. They come out with communist dribble about how evil guns are !!! Not one damn mass shooting has been done by any conservative, not any christian, not any law abiding gun owner ! NEVER NOT ONCE !! They have all been crazy left wing liberal democrats !! And this mass shooting falls directly in the hands of the corrupt FBI !!! Who knew the guy was a disaster waiting to happen,was on a watch list,but was given a security clearance, and allowed to own weapons! !!


June 14th, 2016, 7:27 pm
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Post Re: Gun Control
The shooting was done by a Muslim with legal gun. So both factors should share the blame.

From what's being reported, the guy was a closet gay, and since his religion is dead set against homosexuality, he probably thought this was his way into heaven, or some other idiotic Islamic logic he came up with. So, yes, Islam is to blame.

On the other hand, he was suspected of terrorist activities, and should NOT be able to buy guns so easily. A pre-sale background check should be made mandatory. So, yes, Gun laws are also to blame.

For the LGBT community to put the blame just on gun laws, and to leave Islam (btw, most Muslim countries punish homosexuals severely) alone is either hypocrisy or ignorance.


June 15th, 2016, 9:23 am
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Post Re: Gun Control
You're seriously accusing the LGBT community of hypocrisy in the immediate aftermath of Orlando? I don't know whether to :lol: or :cry:

You really think that the LGBT have not blamed this atrocity on hatred and bigotry, as well as guns? Sheesh.


June 15th, 2016, 10:05 am
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Post Re: Gun Control
DayDreamer wrote:
The shooting was done by a Muslim with legal gun. So both factors should share the blame.

From what's being reported, the guy was a closet gay, and since his religion is dead set against homosexuality, he probably thought this was his way into heaven, or some other idiotic Islamic logic he came up with. So, yes, Islam is to blame.

On the other hand, he was suspected of terrorist activities, and should NOT be able to buy guns so easily. A pre-sale background check should be made mandatory. So, yes, Gun laws are also to blame.

For the LGBT community to put the blame just on gun laws, and to leave Islam (btw, most Muslim countries punish homosexuals severely) alone is either hypocrisy or ignorance.


Background checks are mandatory. Pablo's talking about a waiting period but with background checks being digital and instant, a waiting period does nothing. You're talking about a guy that was hired and remained employed by a security company that is a department of homeland security contractor. He was investigated by the FBI twice and those investigations were stopped by the State Department and the DOJ. Nothing will show on a background check because an investigation doesn't make you guilty. When the DOJ civil rights division refuses to look into people because it might be offensive because they are muslim, you have a breakdown in the system that not only can't prevent these types of attacks, it's encouraging them. It denies common sense that this network of mosques in the US is linked to both San Bernardino and Orlando and the investigation into it was stopped by State. And this is the system that you want saying who can and can't buy guns?

His sexuality is a distraction. It doesn't matter. Isis sent out a list weeks ago of who they were targeting. 600 people of the 8000 were from Florida. The NRA warned the LGBT community a week ago. They didn't take it serious. He was reported to his employers, they did nothing. We armed and empowered ISIS. San Bernardino, Paris, Brussels, now Orlando and guns is what people push, because it's an emotional response. I don't blame people looking for something to blame. It's a natural response.

I don't blame Islam either. It's no secret their views of homosexuality. They've been killing people for it forever. I blame the left that thinks they'll suddenly act differently here and accept them peacefully and putting people at risk by refusing to root out the fanatics here at home.


June 15th, 2016, 11:03 am
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