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I think it is a need, but only to a point. We have other, more glaring holes such as OT. FS isn't a need, but we could certainly upgrade. DE is a position that does have a "ripple" effect throughout the entire defense and getting a legit pass rusher opposite from Hall would be a big addition to the D. Also, getting a DT would be a good addition as Big Daddy is getting old and can't play every down. DT also can have the same effect on the D that DE does.


March 23rd, 2005, 8:35 am
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conversion02 wrote:
Also, getting a DT would be a good addition as Big Daddy is getting old and can't play every down.


True, but I would be fine with Redding or Bell in there with Big Baby. He is going to make anyone better than they already are, including James Hall. I would rather get a pass rusher who can play the run. We had a lot of sacks, but our ends weren't as consistant as I would like to be.

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March 23rd, 2005, 9:03 am
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Is there any word on getting Bell back? Isn't he a UFA?


March 23rd, 2005, 9:13 am
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Ever since David Pollack's pro day, he has been shooting up draft boards, some as high as 10-15 overall. I am amazed at the number of guys willing to advocate the Lions selecting this guy at #10 overall! One could suggest that the general consensus among these posters ranking him so high is that their desire for a pass-rushing DE is so great that they are willing to recognize the stellar workout numbers of a DE, but not give as much credit to DJ's (called one of the best LB combine performances of all time).

Could this just be a recency effect?

Does this sudden change in loyalties (from James, Cody or Merriman to Pollack) suggest that the desire for a DE is so great, and the justifications so few, that a solid pro day suddenly makes Suggs out of Pollack in the eyes of the Lion fan desperate for a Freeny-like sack monster (their apparent perception--not mine)?

I know this post is errant and disorganized (at best), but I am totally taken aback....

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March 23rd, 2005, 9:23 am
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Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen Pollack get a lot of run on these boards.

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March 23rd, 2005, 9:32 am
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Interesting post blueblood. I like your argument but not the object to which you apply it. You believe that Pollack is running up some board charts because of his performance. Well, is that not legitimate? If his workouts bested the other prospects would he not leapfrog them in terms of his draft position? Is Pollack a figment of people's imagination or did he put up some good numbers and produce plays? Maybe Pollack is rather a victim of earlier underhype and now his numbers serve as a corrective.

I think there is something to what you say. There are many teams that recognize the value of a stud DE and for that reason many teams stumble and reach and crash reaching for a prospect that does not live up to his billing. In fact, that it precisely what worries me about merriman. Still, your argument's validity requires you to make more progress on the Pollack front. What makes you think he is undeserving of being picked at #10?


March 23rd, 2005, 11:30 am
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Yorick,

Yeah, I guess I am just taking note of what seems to be a much more pronounced knee-jerk opinion being formed based on Pollack's measurables than from DJ's performance about a month ago.

To be sure, both guys put up stellar numbers (DJ at the combine and Pro day and Pollack at pro day). Furthermore, both guys consistently proved themselves to be game-changing playmakers at the college level.

I will most certainly have to get more information on Pollack before I bash him or argue too furvently against him being regarded so highly (I certainly did not intend to convey such unqualified criticism with my previous post). I was thinking out loud (so to speak) when I just related my surprise at what I have perceived on Lions' MBs (mothership and underground) about the sudden stud-status of a guy who few felt were worthy of the pick pre-work out.

Finally, I think it deserves mention that it is easier to be sensitive to the disparities in reaction from workout numbers of defensive players because there are so few of them in the general-consensus top ten overall.

Point taken, though, Yorick, I honestly knew that my statement--to the extent it resounded critical--was grossly unsupported by facts or qualified opinions. I will be more careful to specifically disclaim/qualify such personal gut-reactions in the future....

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March 23rd, 2005, 1:04 pm
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conversion02 wrote:
Is there any word on getting Bell back? Isn't he a UFA?


I've heard he has re-signed for three years but haven't seen any confirmation. I'd be shocked if Detroit didn't resign him. Something will probably be released with the next day on this.

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March 23rd, 2005, 1:46 pm
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I was not taking you to task Blueblood. Rather, I was hoping to enlist you as the advocate for the anti-Pollack camp in order to test my own vacillating convictions.. Obviously, that is not your sentiment exactly, but more so that you are "smitten" by Derrick Johnson.

To that I ask what did you make of DJ's Rosebowl performance? Also, how would you use him in the Lions base and nickel packages in light of current personnel? Those are the two doubts that gnaw at me and they also reflect my principal prejudice: risk aversion in the first round.


March 23rd, 2005, 1:48 pm
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March 23rd, 2005, 1:50 pm
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Yorick wrote:
I think that sums up the difference of perspective nicely. You seem to have him penciled in as a Derrick Brooks or Ray Lewis type player. While I could see him developing into that I am not sure he has the psychological make-up, drive, and nastiness that separates a great athlete from a playmaker. Also I only put him a inch above the other top 3 defensive playmakers. The one thing I do not follow is why DE is not a "need"?


I've already talked quite a bit about the Defensive End is not a Need thing on the DLMB. It basically boils down to the definition of a need... and the DE position doesn't fit the criteria.

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Sure, we have guys like Redding that can start there, but would a legitimate twelve sack guy have a monumental supplementary effect on the entire defense: sack and hurries creating sacks and hurries for others, forcing turn-overs, forcing more third and longs? The way I see it a great DE forces the offense to account for him on every play and it this reverberates through all three layers of your defense making other players more effective. Every game we won last year the defense was getting in the opposing QBs face. When we did not they churned out yards and TDs. Even if DJ turns out to be a Ray Lewis type player cannot have as much residual impact in my book, at least over the short and intermediate term.


I agree, but this is basically saying that the serviceable DE position can be upgraded. It isn't absolutely imperative that we bring in another DE. Finally... like I said earlier, this class of DE's is solid... but I'm not sure it's going to be easy to find that 12 sack guy. The top two prospects in my opinion have big question marks. And the rest of the DE's are all in the same relative talent level. There is a likelihood that a few DE's will be pushed to the 2nd round. So even if we were to draft DJ at 10... we can still get the same DE at 41 if that presents itself as the best value at that pick.

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Also, thanks for inviting me! A casual glance reveals an absence of the BS that some seem bent on making their mantra!


I'm glad. I've missed a lot of the discussion you brought to the other boards. It's nice to find a place that's just nuetral. And you seemed to have lured blueblood here as well.

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March 23rd, 2005, 2:10 pm
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Yorick wrote:
I was not taking you to task Blueblood. Rather, I was hoping to enlist you as the advocate for the anti-Pollack camp in order to test my own vacillating convictions.. Obviously, that is not your sentiment exactly, but more so that you are "smitten" by Derrick Johnson.

To that I ask what did you make of DJ's Rosebowl performance? Also, how would you use him in the Lions base and nickel packages in light of current personnel? Those are the two doubts that gnaw at me and they also reflect my principal prejudice: risk aversion in the first round.


What I would like to do Yorick, is test my vacillating convictions regarding DJ. At the DLMB, any anti-dj sentiment was childish unfounded and easily refutable. I've been wanting someone to bring it, but there were no takers. This is why I'm glad you are here, you are someone who can definitely 'bring it.' While we will probably end up with the same stances of differing viewpoints on DJ... at least I can test the integrity of my choice.

So while I have to go for now, I will take you up on some of the questions you raise to blueblood, and any other questions and reasons why we don't need DJ.

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March 23rd, 2005, 2:23 pm
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The only bad thing about Pollack is that he's only 265 pounds and 6-2. If he added about 15 more pounds, he could play DE and not get AS pushed around by a mammoth OT. At his size, he'll definately have trouble going up against the likes of Walter Jones or Orlando Pace. Too bad he can't play MLB...or can he? His 40 time of 4.79 wouldn't suggest so, but he is a good player.


March 23rd, 2005, 2:38 pm
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I am not a subscriber to the minimum weight theory. Weight is an imperfect rough measure of several other variables. Guys like Abraham and Haley could play the run fine at lesser weights and Freeney and Kearse do OK at less than 250lbs.

I am not against Derrick Johnson at all. He looks like a great athlete to me. What I am weighing is how he stacks up against Pollack one on one. We already have a great athletic LB in Bailey. Also, according to my diagnosis, what Detroit's defense needs is a spiritual overhaul more than another athlete.

http://www.thelionsfanatics.com/insider_news_144.html

From that point of view, what Detroit needs is a defensive playmaker, a defensive leader, and someone who brings an outside pass rush. You can see my attraction to Pollack. He could fill all three bills simultaneously.

I think Pollack is relatively low risk because he has produced sacks in college, has generally played the run well, has football instincts, and is relentless. Normally, that personality profile does well. When you add the top end of the NFL quickness he displayed with his squat I just do not see any reason why he would not succeed at DE or get 12 sacks?


March 23rd, 2005, 3:48 pm
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Pollack is very quick, I agree. Fast, not very. I just think that with his size and his strength, he will be less effective against bigger OTs than what he faced in college. Now, if he gets stronger, thus adding more weight, he'll do a lot better.

Derrick Johnson seems like much more of a playmaker in my book than does Pollack. Maybe it's because I've seen DJ in a number of games the past few years being in the Big 12. I must say that he is a frickin stud. 16 tackles, a pick and a FF against OK last year? That's a playmaker if you ask me. I don't know on his stats, but it seems like he has more tackles for loss than any other Longhorn in the past 10 years.

BTW, Freeney and Kearse are both around 265, not 250.


March 23rd, 2005, 3:55 pm
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